Talk:Middle name
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[edit] Multiple middle names
I have reinserted the sentence on database problems with multiple middle names being sometimes regarded as discriminatory. This sentence was earlier removed by Seibzehn with no reasons given (the fact that it was mislabeled as a minor edit suggests that it may have been unintentional), but I believe it is sufficiently NPOV ("has been criticized"), and it does describe the real experiences of some people with multiple middle names. Vremya 08:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Asian Culture
The "Asian culture" section is misleading:
- Asian Culture: Middle name goes last, so it looks like: Last First Middle. Generally, if an Asian immigrates to the United States, they anglicize their first and middle names (combined), and then add a middle name. For example: Elaine L. Chao: what the L. stands for is unknown, but Elaine is the anglicization of her combined first and middle names.
See Chinese name for details. Furthermore "L" is typically not unknown but the transliteration of the original First and Middle names and thus the anglicized name has 2 middle names. Samw 04:44, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know, but I was really considering Korean names... as that is how they usually are. And anyway, Elaine Chao's name does fit that explanation... you can change it, though, if you want. ugen64 16:56, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)
I moved the following here and replaced it with real examples and more explanations:
- but Elaine is the anglicization of her combined first and middle names (perhaps a transliteration of a combination like Eu-Lang, or perhaps an arbitrarily chosen English name to replace some other combination, such as Mei-Ching).
--Menchi 06:29, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Removed "The tradition of middle names may have started with the rulers of Rome, e.g., "Gaius Julius Caesar." because Julius was not a middle name. Julius was Caesar's gens, the family name. Gaius was his proper name and Caesar the cognomen of his Julius branch. See roman naming convention. Muriel 08:09, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I wonder if it is appropriate to say "Usually the first characters of Chinese and Korean given names are considered middle names". For Chinese given names, the two characters together should be as a single name. The concept of "first name" and "middle name" doesn't really apply to Chinese names. It would be really strange if you refer to "Wong Shan Leung" as "Wong Leung" by dropping the "middle" name. Gcc hk 16:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] List of people??
Does Wikipedia have any article on people who are known by their middle name?? Georgia guy 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Middle name or Middle Initial?
Is it more popular in the USA to use just your middle initial on passports, driver license, ID's? or use the FULL middle name? I rarely see the middle name used on forms or ID's?
- It generally depends on the length of the middle name, and if that person likes it enough to use it. For example, if the full name will not fit on a driver license or passport, they will use the middle initial only. There is no legal naming convention in the U.S., so different agencies are permitted to handle this in any way they see fit, although in the future their may be standards across all federal and state agencies. See Real ID Act. 71.100.160.189 18:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Greek Middle Name System
I would like to see the Greek middle name system here also. In Greek, I know that the male's middle name is a patronymic: let's say that the father of Konstantinos Papadopoulos is called Pantelis, the full name of Konstantinos would be Konstantinos Panteli Papadopoulos (or Konstantinos Papadopoulos tou Panteli).
What happens with females? Do they also take their father's name (thus Konstantinos Papadopoulos's sister would be Maria Panteli Papadopoulou/Maria Papadopoulou tou Panteli)?
Once I know the information about the females I will edit this article.
Leon. xcvb
The woman take their father's name also so it would be Maria Papadopoulou tou Panteli, it is rarely ever written with the father's name before the family name it is almost always written as "tou...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.6.184 (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Catholic middle names
The section on "Catholic" middle names seems to relate more to certain local European culture considerations than the wider Church; to the best of my knowledge there is no Church teaching/view on such names (please advise me if I'm wrong). The section should reflect this. Cheers, --Daveb 07:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
FYI: In France, Marie is not a middle name in the name Jean-Marie! Jean-Marie is a name composed of two words, but it is a complete name. You would say Jean-Marie when calling somebody named Jean-Marie and not Jean!
Marie or Maria is in German law the only female name allowed also for men. As, by law, the name must reflect the gender, Maria is only allowed as middle name when the other names clearly show whether the holder is male or female. Ipwaz2003 09:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not necesary to take a new name when a catholic goes under his confirmation. In fact, it's just an option. Though it certainly was something common to do three or four decades ago. What it is really common among catholic and traditional families is to give a child two names and to use both, instead of keeping in a second place one like the middle name system does. In that way you can find boys named José Tomás who 'keep themselves' and respond to the name in a whole and not much to José or Tomás.
[edit] Harvardiana
"Despite their relatively long existence in the Western world, the phrase "middle name" was not recorded until 1835 in "Harvardiana", a school song of Harvard." Hmm just created Harvardiana no sign of "middle name" in it! Rich Farmbrough 16:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's a magazine as well.... Rich Farmbrough 16:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The whole concept
I have a big problem with this page. It seems to be predicated on on a false assumption that we have a first name and a surname, and that if we want any extra ones they have to go in between those. This leads to the POV that people who are 'known by their middle name' are somehow going against the natural order of things. In reality, plenty of people (me, for instance) have their 'extra' names placed before their main 'first name' (or even either side of it). My full name is Roy Grant Cribb, but I don't think of Grant as my 'middle name' - it's just my name. If someone asks me my first name, I say Grant. The reason it's Roy Grant rather than Grant Roy, is simply that my parents thought it sounded better that way round. From my point of view, 'central' and 'precursory' names make more sense than 'first' and 'middle', because 'middle names' only apply to people who are 'known by their precursory name'. The NPOV terms should be 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename'. Then it becomes apparent just how ridiculous it is to have a list of people known by middle name. If we had a list of people known by supplementary forename it would be empty, because, by definition, no one is. The only reason the 'middle name' list exists at all is that most of the schizonyms (people whose main forename and surname are separated) just don't realize how many of us juxtonyms there are. Roughly one in three twentieth-century British prime ministers, for instance, had supplementary forenames before their main forename.
What to do about it? I'd recommend scrapping this page and transferring any useful information to Given name. I'd also scrap the 'middle name' list; if it were complete it would contain the names of a large proportion of all the famous people who had ever lived.
The Font 12:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Afterthought: No, better not scrap it. But restrict it to discussion of middle names in naming systems where these have particular significance - or lack of significance. In the common Western convention, the only difference between a 'first' forename and a second, third or fourth is that the most popular position for the main one is at the beginning. The opening paragraph should explain this, and link to Given name for a fuller treatment.
Grant 16:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Initial only on Security Documents?
I don't think the statement that "In United States, the middle name is rarely used on official documents. The middle initial is used instead on most identity documents, passports, driver licenses, social security cards, and university diplomas" is totally accurate. This may be a relatively new convention, but I have my full middle name on all those documents (issued between 1998 and this Tuesday).
The US passport has spaces for "Surname" and "Given names". The SSA's latest application for a new Social Security card (dated May 06) specifically asks for the "Full Middle Name" on page 5 [1]. I know some states require only the middle initial whereas others require the full middle name for a driver's license. I think most universities ask you what name you want listed on your diploma; I know mine did. I'm not sure what's meant by identity documents, but if it's not listed on your birth certificate and/or Social Security card, it would seem that it's legally not your middle name. Any input before I edit this statement? JordeeBec 22:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- It varies, depending on how long your full name is and what you prefer to use. All of those documents use my full middle name, but if I had, say, a very long name like Michaelangelo followed by multiple middle names such as Jonathan Matthew Michael and then a long surname such as Stephens-Cardenas, it would be easier for them to simply put "Michaelangelo J. Stephens-Cardenas" on my driver license or social security card. There are no legal requirements for naming conventions in the U.S. 71.100.160.189 18:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Near East
I would like to know about Russian, Baltic, and Central European naming practices. I know they are not the same as in western countries.
- It is my understanding that for Russians, the middle name is an altered form of the father's first name, so a girl whose father is Mikhail has a middle Mikhailovna. This seems to equate to Johnson, or Richardson meaning Son of John, or Richard. etc... although in the above example it would clear mean Daughter of Michael. I do not have references for this. Dachande 16:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- During the Russian occupation, the Latvians were forced to use the Slavic pattern of first name, patronimic, last name. Since then using the middle place has become somewhat popular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.148.162.210 (talk) 16:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
[edit] No Middle Name
"It is also possible for a person to have no middle name, although in modern Western culture this would be the exception rather than the norm." I don't think this is true. In Scandinavia, for instance, it's very common to not have a middle name.
- In Italy too. --necronudist 08:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- South Slavs (excluding Bulgarians, I'm not too sure about them) typically don't have middle names. The last names take the form of the East Slavic patronymic name. Thus, nearly every Serb's last name ends in 'ić'. -Marko 3/4/08
-
- I believe the fallacy commited in the statement above is the following equasion: North-American culture = modern Western culture. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Dispute
I think the entire article is written from the U.S. point of view. There are some attempts to make this clear, such as the "In the United States" in the first paragraph of the introduction and the "In the United States" in the last paragraph of the section "Western", but there are still a number of statements that seem to be referring directly to U.S. naming conventions. For instance:
the increased use of computer databases that allow for only a single middle name or more commonly a middle initial in storing personal records
seems to be only referring to the U.S.; in continental Europe, most forms and databases do not ask for middle names.
The two posters under "No Middle Name" confirm that the naming practice in Scandinavia and Italy is vastly different. The same is true in other European countries, witnessed by the German wikipedia entry for middle name, where there is no distinction between various given names into "first" and "middle". Compare also the German entry for first name which explicitly states
Im anglo-amerikanischen Raum sind Zwischennamen gebräuchlich, die auch Mittelnamen ("middle name") genannt werden und meistens mit dem Anfangsbuchstaben abgekürzt werden.
To summarize: The introduction and the section "Western" only describes the angloamerican naming practice, but this is not properly mentioned in the article. I suggest rewriting the introduction, renaming the section "Western" into "USA" or "Angloamerican", and possibly adding a section (or sections) on other Western European naming conventions and traditions.
[edit] Earlier citations for "middle name"
Google Books turns up two uses of "middle name" before 1835: first, A General Abridgment and Digest of American Law p.787 of 1829 - "To omit the middle name, or part of the Christian name, is a misnomer".[2] Second, The History of New England from 1630 to 1649 p.65 of the 1825 second edition - "But that middle name was derived from intermarriage of Adam, his great grandfather..." (note that the preface states that the book has been completely re-edited from the first edition of 1790). Warofdreams talk 03:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Names that differ only by their middle name
I have known at least 2 people whose names differed from the father's only by their middle name/initial. In one case this happened for 2 consecutive generations. Of course, George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush are a particularly famous and peculiar example.
I'd like to know how common this is and how the distinction is made colloquially. In one of these cases, the father was called by his full first name and the son by his middle name. In another case, the son was known by his full first name and the father by his nickname.Bostoner (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] British Middle Names vs. Second/Third etc. Forenames
While preparing a catalogue of recordings by predominantly British performers, I came across several instances of "middle names" that do not seem to be just additional or alternative forenames, simply because these names do not occur as forenames on their own. It seems that the British - at least in the early 20th century - treated these "true middle names" differently from simple extra given names. My question is how to treat these in terms of alphabetization (in simpler words "Where would these people be listed in a telephone directory?")
Some examples to (hopefully) clarify what I'm talking about:
Louise Kirkby Lunn - variously filed under "Kirkby" or "Lunn" in my sources David Lloyd George - always listed under "Lloyd" AFAIK, why? Herbert Beerbohm Tree - should he be with the "B"'s or with the "T"'s? Helen Porter Mitchell - "P" or "M" ?
OTOH there's no doubt that
John William Myers is found under "M" and Erich Maria Remarque under "R"
so there seem to be two different phenomena at work here, or am I completely on the wrong track?
Chris (chris@truesoundtransfers.de) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.85.191 (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Sweden
The section on Sweden states: "Since Swedish-speakers nowadays only very rarely address one another with "Mr./Mrs. X", it is more or less a moot point if the correct term of address here is Mr. Svartholm Warg, Mr. Svartholm or Mr. Warg."
However, when referring to a person more formally, for instance in a written text (a book, a newspaper article etc.) one would normally use the family name, and rarely the given name alone. This example does not seem to be a typical one, and should perhaps be replaced. GVU (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Brazil - Catholic Middle Names
"In Brazil, the middle name is usually the mother's maiden name." Are you sure about that? I am Brazilian, my middle name is "Henrique", which has nothing to do with anyone in my family at all. And I mean, I have yet to see someone here who was named after his mother's maiden name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faitudum (talk • contribs) 16:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
"In Brazil, the middle name is usually the mother's maiden name." In Brazil our naming system is different than in many countries. We do not consider the mother's family name as her sole maiden name nor as middle name but as part of the last name. So our family name is made of the mother's family name and father's family name. "Middle name" would be a second first name some people have such as Ana Maria or Pedro Henrique and even then we don't really call it "middle name" either. Futhermore, "maiden name" is a different concept here as women don't usually replace their names by their husband's like in some cultures, but some women add his name, although nowadays fewer women do so. Odnadraug (talk) 02:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
