Talk:Russians

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Russians was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: November 20, 2007

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Contents 1 Scythian origin of most of Russians 2 Russians and Slavs in the Levant 3 Slopiness revert 4 Russian peoples contribution in victory over the nazis? 5 Culture 6 This article needs editing 7 WHAT ABOUT JEWISH RUSSIANS?!!!! 8 Translation into Chinese Wikipedia 9 Russians in Israel

[edit] Scythian origin of most of Russians

I do not know why whenever there is an article on russia or russians, you can feel that they simply stress on this shit slavic roots of all ethnic russians, this is totally false, they begin the history of russians ( Human beings living on the territory of european russia) from somewhere after 500AD as if before 500AD only rats and pigs were inhabiting the european russia and there were no human beings living around european russia, whereas it is fact like the existence of sun that territory of european russia was the land of scythians (sakas) as late as 100AD, and there are countless remains of indo-iranians within the territory of southern Russia and around the urals mountains, and there were finno-ugric people living in north of european russia, what do you think all these sakas, indo-iranians, finno-ugric populations burried themselves alive under the ground of european russia at the time of the arrival of the fucking Slavs. Why it is all the time the fucking Slavic identity that all the european russians are given. If all european russians are slavic then why do they have weird surnames that are most likely scythian, indo-iranian or finno-ugric origin. Why russians can be identified from all other fucking people calling themselves slavs like chezks, slovaks or slovenián, why russians faces and body structures are different from the aforementioned fucking people that are the core of slavs. My question is why russians deny to accept that they are racially a mix of scythian, indo-iranic, finno-ugric and off-course latter arriving fucking Slavs who gave them their present language. Why russians are ashamed of their ancient scythian, indo-iranic, finno-ugric roots, why does there racial history begins with the arrival of fucking bastard Slavs.

I agree with you, it's rather politics to call Russians fully Slavic same any other nation called Slavic. But it's important to know what is the time of interaction of Iranians and Russians? Russians firstly populated these South East European Russia in 16-17 century, moreover mostly Turkic peoples leaved there at that time. But interconnection of Slavs and Scythians is known in case of Polians, that why possibly all East Slavs but exactly Ukrainians is the result of it. The level of Russians attitude to it is at least indefinite. --Riwnodennyk ✉ 20:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

how much hate. what's wrong with you, kid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.113.149.177 (talk) 02:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Russians and Slavs in the Levant

In the section regarding Russians outside of Russia, I would like to bring up an interesting topic which has been long forgotten, except among a few circles of historians.

(But first, i would like to mention and interesting tidbit: In modern times there are indeed many Russian Jews now residing in Israel. But there is a significant population of Russians residing in Syria, particularly near the hydroelectric dam of Lake Assad along the Euphrates River. During the Soviet era many engineers and scientists were sent to Syria to build the dam, and even after its completion, and after the fall of the USSR, many Russians decided to continue living in Syria.)

It turns out there is a small percentage of families in the Middle East (particularly Syria/Lebanon/Palestine) when tested for genetic origins, are actually East Slav in origin -- haplogroup R1a1 --, not Arab nor other Semitic origin. (There is also yet another group of families that test northwestern European -- haplogroup R1b -- suggesting descent from Crusaders.) Apparently during the Mongol invasions of the 13th century tens of thousands of Slav boys from the Ukraine and the Russian steppe were kidnapped and sold into slavery in the Crimea, where Genoese merchants sold them to Arab buyers. From there these boys were shipped to Cairo and Damascus where they were turned into mamluks. (Mamluks from later centuries came from regions in the Caucasus Mts., but the early mamluks were mainly Slavs, Kipchak Turks, and Circassians.) Initially mamluk men only married daughters of other mamluks, and spoke their native tongues, as they were resistant to speaking Arabic and marrying outside of their race, but with time many of their descendants married into the local population. There is a small mountain town in the Galilee called Safed which was primarily settled by mamluks after the fall of the Templar Knights, and that group remained fairly homogenous well into the 20th century. This is evidenced not only by genetic testing but also by their phenotypical appearance... most of them look "Slavic" (very tall, with fair features). Also some vocabulary words used by older generations are not Arabic, but rather Kipchak, which was a major language of the steppe, even among Slavic people.

If such a "diaspora" as this one occurred in modern times, this would have made headlines as a major human rights violation in human trafficking. Imagine the scores of these East Slav boys that were sold into this "elite" slavery and yearning to return to their families left behind in the steppe.

Tanneen (talk) 12:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)Tanneen

Hidden thread started by suspected sock of banned user User:M.V.E.i.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
Just for the record, those you call "Russian Jews" dont belong to this article, because they are not Russians. They are ethnic Jews, while this article is about ethnic Russians. Their not Slavic, their semitic. 79.180.125.128 (talk) 18:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Wrong. Not all ancestors of every single Russian Jew trace their ancestry to Israel (ancient Judea). Lots of Jews in Russia married Russians, and many ethnic Russians converted to Judaism some time ago. Evidence: there are Russian sections in Jewish cemeteries of deceased people with Russian given names and surnames. And those in the United States whose surnames are not of Russian origin, were of Russian origin back in Russia. For instance, my paternal grandfather's mother's maiden name was Rosenberg, but apparently it was Malenkov back in Russia. Marcus2 (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Then your simply 1/8 Russian. It's like a Muslim Tatar and a Christian Russian getting merried and their chile decides to be Muslim and consider himself a Tatar, he wont enter the category of Russian Muslims in the ethnic sense. And how much ethnics Russians got giyur? There are more Budhist and Hindoist Russians then that. And it is an article about ethnic Russians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.159.133 (talk) 13:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC) Wrong. I'm ½ Russian, not ⅛ Russian. And where did you hear it being suggested that more ethnic Russians converted to Buddhism and Hinduism than Judaism? I'm really curious. Marcus2 (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC) I see you didn't really check the statistics. God of Sins (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slopiness revert

I have reverted some sloppy edits made by another user, in which another user had to add two fact tags each for Jews and Muslims. I think I know what he tried to do, but he made the page look disheveled. Marcus2 (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't seem to understand your position, have a look at Koreans, no Jews or Muslims there, though by simple probability you are bound to find a Jew and a Muslim of Korean ethnicity. So what makes Russians unique to this selection? There is no region in Russia which has a Russian-Muslim/Jewish concentration, unlike that of Bulgaria for example. There are no known diasporas of ethnic Russians that adhere to Islam or Judaism. Again, I am focusing only on ethnic Russians, not for example on many Jews that were born in Russia, or lots of Muslim groups, that nominally consider themselves Russian but neither are of Slavic origin. Of course that does not mean there are no ethnic Russians that changed their religion for the purpose of marriage or lifestyle, yet individual cases, referenced by google searches violate the WP:RS and in particular that wikipedia should be written from secondary sources, so individual examples in the media are as useful as toilet paper in a public lavatory. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 15:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Marcus2, that user was me. You're making unsubstantiated statements, that is why I put a fact template for it. Next time please follow the Wiki rules and do not delete ^{[citation needed]} unless you provide a reliable source. Taamu (talk) 08:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russian peoples contribution in victory over the nazis?

I find this piece of the article very controversial: "Russian people had a large part in the victory over Nazi Germany at World War II". The author paints a picture of galant and brave russians who fought against Nazis but doesn't mention russian involvement in building the strenght of 3rd reich. Thanks to russians Hitler built and trained - inside of soviet union - his armies. Look at Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact also. It was russians and germans who invaded Poland in 1939. And though red army liberated nazi concentration camps, they had nothing againts the idea of building them in the first place. Anyway why would they? They had their own Gulags that devoured millions also. If the author writes about their bravoury he should also mention their on going history of atrocities and abuses towards bordering nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.141.88 (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hidden thread started by suspected sock of banned user User:M.V.E.i.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
Enemtually those who have taken Berlin, those who have beaten Hittler, those who lost 20 Million were Russians. You forgot about the Munich pact which was the one that forced Stalin to do the Ribentropp-Molotov pact. Russians never abused bordering nations. The Polish-Lithuenian commenwealth should have thought before they attacked Russia. Ukraine? The east doesn't even have to do anything with Ukraine, see New Russia. And Gulag? Stalin, Trotsky, and Koganovich weren't exacly Russians. Ask Ossetians, Abkhazians, Serbs, and many other nations about Russians and you will hear only good things. God of Sins (talk) 19:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC) How surprising, a Polish IP. You know that the first wars beetwen Russia and Poland were started by Poles right? Don't wine up for being beaten up and humiliated, you stated it. God of Sins (talk) 19:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The Soviet Union contributed to 80% of the German's casualties and there are links to prove it. If you have some sort of personal vendetta against Russians please don't bring on wikipedia.--Krotx (talk) 05:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hidden thread started by suspected sock of banned user User:M.V.E.i.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
There is really no need to attack the anon and make accusations of a personal vendetta. This section has indeed some NPOV problem as it only shows one side of the picture, glossing over the points raised by the anon and also ignoring that it was the Soviet Union and the Russian people that took an important part in defeating Nazi Germany. Furthermore, the tone of this section is overly boasting and unfit for an encyclopedia. Hence a clear delete, at least until someone comes up with a better, more neutral version. We should mention the loss of life, as this direct relevance for the Russian people. A section about achievements though is inappropriate. Novidmarana (talk) 05:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Sorry, you have to learn some rules. The discussion was alredy held so you didn't discover America in opening that topic. A huge majority decided and explanations were given why this section is nutral and why it will stay. You can't just come and start deciding what is right. God of Sins (talk) 14:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Learn it. The discussion was held, the language was nutralised. Do you really wan't to start all that again? Don't do edits you didn't learn their history first. God of Sins (talk) 14:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC) For the moment I will ignoring your hostile tone. This discussion was between two editors (four editors if you count User:VanTucky and User:JanderVK and the result of the discussion was inconclusive at best. In fact, three editor had expressed their concerns over the NPOV language of this section had that particular time, one editor opposed. How that is a huge majority is beyond me. Apart from that, the article failed the GA nomination, because of this section, see [1], quote: "separate section just to chronicle the positive contributions of ethnic russians is not acceptable", exactly what I said. If you have any reasons why we should have a section with the title "achievements" and why World War II should be included let me know, but please make sure that they comply with NPOV. Novidmarana (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Again, read the whole old discussion and then return. All you ask was answered there. For Russians the great patriotic war is an important topic. Now stop edit warring. You can't just come and do whatever you want. God of Sins (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC) And my tone wasn't hostile, but shure I couldn't be happy with a user who instead of learning the whole story comes to revert and do things which were already long discussed about. God of Sins (talk) 15:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hidden thread started by checkuser confirmed sockpuppet of User:BlueSalo
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
So I added a POV tag as my edits are reverted by a suspected sockuppet. For why the section Notable achievements is inapprorpirate see above, and also the old disucssion at Talk:Russians/Archive_2#The_section_.22Contribution_to_humanity.22_and_the_section_.22Culture.22_is_disputed, a discussion that ended inconclusively, despite the counterfactual claim that a consensus has been reached. Also note that inappropriate canvassing is going on by God of Sins. Novidmarana (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Please note that User:No Free Nickname Left, who was the only (but very vocal) opponent of the POV tagging in the discussion you mentioned is checkuser confirmed sockpuppet of the banned user User:M.V.E.i. and his opinions can therefore be safely disregarded. There is no consensus on the neutrality of this article, and there never has been. Papa November (talk) 18:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC) I have restored the stable version. I think removing the World War II from Russians is like removing the Holocaust from Jews. The notion of the great effort in the World War II is in national psiche no other nation has so visible demographic traces of the WWII, etc. The notion is true and it is not offensive to anybody I see no reasons to remove it. If the statements are somehow POVed lets discuss the way to NPOVing it but removing the notion straight away is simply unacceptable Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC) I agree, however it needs better references, prefferably ones that not only confirm what is written in this article (which the current refs do not), but also actually use the word "Russians" since this is, after all, the "Russians" article, not "Soviets". Ostap 17:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC) Yeah, this paragraph should be rewritten a bit more carefully, or labelled with a warning about balance. It mentions the Russian people once, then discusses the Soviet Union, the Eastern Front, and the Red Army as if they were synonyms of Russia and Russians. It perpetuates the naïve equation of Russia and the Soviet Union which pervades WWII mil-fan literature. Millions of Belarusians, Georgians, Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, and others also died in action, and many more as innocent civilians, so it should be acknowledged that this paragraph doesn't mention a single thing unique to Russians. It would only take a few words to set this straight, which needn't take it over. And less serious, but the tone is not quite right for an encyclopedia. Although it mentions the figure of wartime losses, it is mainly congratulatory and victorious. It could also make an impression about what trials the Russian people overcame in the early 20th century, from the Civil War, through collectivization, the purges, and the war with Germany. —Michael Z. 2008-10-24 07:41 z I reorganized the article and created a history section. The article is still far from perfect, obviously the history section now needs an expansion. The culture section, which now contains the names of the most famous writers, scientists, musicians should also be more than just a list of famous names. Novidmarana (talk) 16:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

hidden thread started by checkuser confirmed sockpuppet of banned User:M.V.E.i.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
I have entered the article and in the History saw the reverts done by Novidmarna, saying the revert she did was "per talk". The funny thing is what she did was against what was said by mose people in the Talk. Bakharev said deleting WW2 from the Russians is like deleting the holocaust from the Jews. He is right Ostap also said that the version including WW2 is better and simply needs more referencing. Novidmarana, you can't change the article when there is no agreement. If you stated what you oppose to on the talk page to doesn't alow you that becuase there are many people deciding not just you. I'm sexy, I'm hot, I'm everything your not (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Turns our she's a sock of User:BlueSalo. I'm sexy, I'm hot, I'm everything your not (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Aren't you a sock of User:M.V.E.i.? Colchicum (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Culture

...Russian art is very important..., Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, and Tola Brennan. What is this "Tola Brennan" link to "The National (Band)" ???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.162.54 (talk) 03:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs editing

And where are the Viking origins of the Russians? Where is the term Rus explained? What where the earlier tribes like? Migdejong (talk) 14:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] WHAT ABOUT JEWISH RUSSIANS?!!!!

There are plenty of Jews in Russia. Sure, some of them are Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Moldovans Turkics, Tartars, and Mongols, (Khazars), (a lot, in fact), but there is a large amount of Jews in Russia who are ethnic Russians. In fact, my family is Jewish Russians. I am offended that it does not mention the fact that some Russians are Jewish. Yes, about half are Americans of Russian descent, like me, but we are still Russian, no? I am putting Jewish Russians in the "Religion" Category.--67.80.57.142 (talk) 03:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)GooglePedia12

Those are not ethnic Russians, they are not slavic but semitic, they are not ethnic Russians/ And if those are ethnic Russians who converted to Judism... there number is to small to mention, more convertet to Hinduism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.155.52 (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Right, that's why Jewish Russians all have olive skin.--C+C (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

There were discussions on it: [2], [3]. Only few of thosr jew who are in Russia are actualy ethnic Russians who converted to Judaism, to few to mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.155.52 (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"...Jewish Russians all have olive skin." Bullshit! Where did you get that silly notion?? Why do you think there are people in Jewish cemeteries with uniquely Russian names? Supposedly because there were Russian rabbis and Jewish missionaries seeking converts in Russia long ago. The numbers of ethnic-Russian Jews seem larger than you think. Marcus2 (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

1. That's your POV.

2. Changing a name (like was did according to laws and rules) doesn't mean change of ethnicity.

3. DNA researches showd that thanks to being closed until the last centuries in it's communities, the Jews kept an homogenic DNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.124.43 (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Really? If there was a law saying that one must change his/her name, there could have been violent revolts and a possible overthrow of the government! Where's your proof? I'm dying to know. Marcus2 (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

And where is your? Your POV on look? There were talks on it, you have no right to come in put in your POV while a big majority decided otherwise, and not for the first time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.144.188 (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Marcus, are you serious? "If there was a law saying that one must change his/her name, there could have been violent revolts and a possible overthrow of the government"? Marcus, there were so many antisemitic cases in hostory in pogroms, when exaclly did the Jews make a revolt and overthrow the goverment? Do you have any idea how few Jews there are and there was in those countries? If you would have any idea in Jewish history, you would know Catherine II made a law Jews must change theur surnames to German once (a law from August 28, 1787. The law became active in Janurary 1789). You would also know that even earlier the Polish king made a law Jews nust change their surnames to Polish once. In both cases there was no resistance. And here's an article with more information: [4]. We Jews are a seperate ethnic group, live with that and stop being so self hating trying to show we are not. 132.66.180.154 (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard about anything like that. The closest you will come to an ethnic Russian who is Jewish is a person from the CIS who made Aliyah to Israel but has an Jewish Father, and henceforth isn't a Jew by rabbinical law and some of them convert to make things easier for themselves. I'm sorry but unless you bring reliable proof for your claims this is a load of bs, personal "research" has no place on Wikipedia and frankly this is freaking ridiculous. --Krotx (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Agree 100%! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.233.95 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

In this context Subbotniks (Russians who converted to Judaism) may be mentioned. Olegwiki (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

No they can't. They are to few to be mentioned. There are more pagan Russians then subbotniks and converts to Judaism together (here comes's another case, that the Subbotniks only take some elements from Judaism, but they still belive in Jesus and stuff so they are nor Jews). 79.179.135.9 (talk) 14:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Almost all the Jews in Russia are Ashkenazi Jews, this is another ethnic group, it has nothing to do with the ethnic Russians, they have different origin, different history, different surnames, different traditional language (Yiddish), different fisical appearence etc. Is this so difficult to understand? 77.127.239.165 (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Translation into Chinese Wikipedia

The version 12:16, 25 March 2009 Spitfire of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Wing (talk) 20:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Russians in Israel

This article is about ethnic Russians, not about Russian speaking people. There's more than a million people in Israel who speak Russian as a native language (those who immigrated from the former Soviet Union in the last 20 years), but most of them belong to the Jewish people, not to the Russian people. In Israel they are refferred as "Russians" in the daily speech, but only a minority of them are ethnic Russians. Btw, a large percentage of the Russian speaking Israelis are not even from Russia, but from Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc, so not even they are not ethnic Russian, they even never were Russian citizens. The number 1,100,000 is not correct, and the "source" doesn't even mention Israel, it's a page about demographic statistic in Kyrgyzstan!!! And don't start saying stuff like "the Russian speaking Jews are Russians with a different religion", cause by that "logic" Jewish people doesn't exist at all. 77.127.239.165 (talk) 12:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)