Welcome to roadinet.com on July 11 2009.
This is an internet experiment running to monitor browsing habbits of individuals through wikipedia contents.

Talk:Shamanism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Spirituality (Rated B-Class)
Spirituality portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spirituality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spirituality-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
This article has been rated but has no comments. If appropriate, please review the article and leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and how best to improve it.
Version 1.0 Editorial Team     (Rated B-Class)
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
WikiProject Alternative medicine (Rated B-Class)
Complementary and Alternative Medicine portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.



Archives

Pelase somebosy upload the image of the Altaian shamaness I accidentally deleted while correcting the caption for this image

Contents

[edit] Request for edit of serious error.

{{editsemiprotected}} The word Shaman is translated from it's root language as "one who contains fire" not "one who knows" as mentioned in the article. This is a serious error and should be changed as soon as possible.

Rejected: the etymology section is extensive and well-cited. Naahid بنت الغلان Click to talk 17:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, from my point of view the origin of the word "shaman" comes from the Sanskrit word Shramana and the meaning hasn't got anything to do with the "one who contains fire" nor the "one who knows". The two qualifications may only be attributes of certain types of shaman. First because shaman can be of different types than fire, second a shaman does not "know". It's the spirit who knows. The shaman only knows how to deal with the spirits. I let you investigate further on the Etymology of the Sanskrit word Shramana, which I think has to do with "the one who makes the effort" but I'm not sure. Signed : a humble practitioner in shamanism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.203.228.231 (talk) 20:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Shaman

"Practitioners of shamanism are known as shamans"

THis is incorrect. Many people practice shamanism in their daily lives. That does not necessarily make them shamans. THere is an initiatory process that all shamans experience, and it is the spirits who select who a shaman will be. It is up to the one "called" to accept that role or deny it. It is not usually something one really desires, because being a shaman in the true sense is not an easy life to lead.

It is a misrepresentation to suggest that anyone who practices shamanism is an actual shaman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karenfurr (talk • contribs) 21:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This is my understanding as well. This is actually a fairly serious distinction and should be worked into the definition clearly. Dhcernese (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the one that has been "called" by the spirits has the possibility to deny it. And Therefore, would agree with the distinction between "shaman" and "practitioner in shamanism". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.203.228.231 (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons

It might be worth someone adding something about the reasons behind shamanism - eg why do these people seem to communicate with a spirit world? Are there scientific explanations for this phenomenon?

Also, what about shamanism in popular culture, for example, in the tv series Twin Peaks. --Totorotroll (talk) 15:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

84.50.181.246 - You keep reverting the following statement:

The correct plural form of shaman is shamans. Unlike man or woman, the word sha•man is not derived from the base word man, so the plural form of man cannot be used. The word shaman is actually an incorporated foreign word to the English language (like the French word bureau), and not a word (or derived from a word) from the Middle or Old English like man. Like any incorporated word, it has to follow the same standard English rule for plural forms on nouns (e.g. paper/papers, prima donna/prima donnas) unless it already has a plural form from its original language (like the Latin syllabus/syllabi). Further, the female form is not Shamaness, but rather Shamanka.

This statement needs re-working, is not sourced, and it contradicts the previous paragraph. Where is your source that cites this? Dinkytown (talk) 22:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

  • The source cited dose not mention the above description. Dinkytown (talk) 20:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
  • are you blind Main Entry:
   sha·man Listen to the pronunciation of shaman

Pronunciation:

   \ˈshä-mən, ˈshā- also shə-ˈmän\

Function:

   noun

Inflected Form(s):

   plural shamans

"shaman" is from sanskrit word "śramana", it means "buddhist monk" or "ascetic" -Satyr

Where's your source? Dinkytown 02:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Removal by Dinkytown of good faith contribution

Considering that almost the entire sections of Career and Practice are unsourced, wouldn't it have been more fair to request citations (which is the standard practice) rather than remove the contribution concerning "Shama in Old Hebrew" by 68.181.218.17? Odestiny (talk) 03:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

  • This is what 68.181.218.17 wrote:
However, it is of interest to note that Shama in Old Hebrew meant "one who heard," as in one who hears God or the divine voice. Our word Simon can be followed thus: masc. proper name, from L., from Gk. Symeon, from Heb. Shim'on, lit. "hearkening, hearing," from shama "he heard." In Eng. O.T., usually printed as Simeon, but in N.T. almost always as Simon. The famous Simon Magus, the Samaritan magician who was rebuked by Saint Peter when he tried to buy the power of confering the Holy Spirit (Acts viii:18-20), is a classical example of the Shaman. It is likely that these words have a similar ancient root.
There are several problems with this: 1) 68.. stole that quote from the Online Etymology Dictionary - copywrite ripoff is mildly frowned upon by Wikipedia."See Simon"; 2) Shaman is not "Old Hebrew". Accourding to Oxford it is Tungus - a language of Siberia. He was putting in wrong information. [1] 68... did not cite the origin of that quote; 3) 68.. is quoting Bible text which has nothing to do with shamanism; 4) "It is likely that these words have a similar ancient root" - 68.. is also doing original research, which is a no-no in Wikipedia.; 5) It was badly written/copied... Time would be better spent if he was looking for citations for the present work rather than putting in the above. Dinkytown (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shamanism, Greek and Roman religion

Even if I set aside my skepticism about importing the concept of shamanism to Greek or Roman religious practices, the assertions in this article are unsupported. Given the broad definition of shamanism, I get why necromancy bears comparison, but the statement about the necromancer as known from ancient Greek culture is broad, vague, and unsubstantiated. The following statement is also unsourced: "Greek paganism was influenced by shamanism [How do we know this? Whose shamanism influenced Greek religion?] as reflected in the stories of Tantalus, Prometheus, Medea, and Calypso among others, [This is treated as self-evident, but it isn't at all evident to me what the 'shamanic' elements are in these myths] as well as in the Eleusinian Mysteries, and other mysteries [Again, not self-evident how]. Some of the shamanic practices of the Greek religion later merged into the Roman religion [Whoa -- big subject; but did native Roman religion have no 'shamanic' aspects of its own?]." We just seem to be eliding a range of religious practices and roles: private magic, public oracles, priesthoods, initiations ... Cynwolfe (talk) 17:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Several pages seem to be missing

This has to do with the website, not the article per se. The topic on page 21 is not completed and there are a couple of blank pages before the bibliography begins. 130.184.236.213 (talk) 16:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My New Additions

I made a few additions in the "See Other" section. I think they have some relevancy here.

--Bill--

Sunday, December 07, 2008

[edit] Animism

Another problem with the definition and charaterization of shamanism... animism/animatism is not an organized religion, as the 'animism' article itself clearly says. (I don't know if Eliade claims it is in the reference... if he did, he's not using animism in the way that is generally accepted today). I think on a broader level, we just need to acknowledge that shamanism is fragmentary, somewhat vaguely defined, and has a lot of overlap with things like animism, some magical practices, etc. I think the article needs to do a better job of communicating this complexity and ambiguity. I suspect a 'history of the term' section would be really good. This would probably mostly involve building a backstory for the 'Criticism of the term' section.Genesiswinter (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More on the breadth of definition

Regrettably, I am not an anthropologist, so I can not provide more precision to the definition....but I wish someone endowed with expertise would. The article defines shamanism as "a range of traditional beliefs and practices concerned with communication with the spirit world...Shamans are intermediaries between the human and spirit worlds. They can treat illness and are capable of entering supernatural realms to provide answers for humans." This sounds like my vocation as an Anglican priest. Does this make me a shaman? Perhaps entering into the discussion on the basis of that distinction might yield a more precise definition. For the record, I do consider that there is little difference between who I am and what I do and shamanism as explained in the article. fishhead64 (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fishhead... I would have to disagree with you regarding the simularities between a Monotheistic religion (such as Christianity) and a generic form of Shamanism. Take for example the following 'understandings' of Shamanism:
   * Spirits exist and they play important roles both in individual lives and in human society.
   * The shaman can communicate with the spirit world.
   * Spirits can be good or evil.
   * The shaman can treat sickness caused by evil spirits.
   * The shaman can employ trance inducing techniques to incite visionary ecstasy and go on "vision quests".
   * The shaman's spirit can leave the body to enter the supernatural world to search for answers.
   * The shaman evokes animal images as spirit guides, omens, and message-bearers.
   * The shaman can tell the future, scry, throw bones/runes, and perform other varied forms of divination.
I have known several Shamans over the years; Native American Dakota and Ojibwe, Sami, and Hmong. Even though they are thousands of miles apart, they all have some connections with each other and with the above. However, I've never seen a priest, minister, imam, or rabbi get involved in any of the above in a regular fashion. Yes, all religions deal with the supernatural and the unknown, that is something that they all have in common. But I have never heard of a Rabbi or Priest go on a 'vision quest' in order to find answers in the spirit world for the next of kin. However, a trait that Christianity, Islam, Judaism (Abrahamic Religions) and many other larger religions have that Shamanism does not, is the objective of prositizing to the unconverted. In fact, I don't think I have to give they numerous examples of how Christianity has played a major part in destruction of many Shamanistic religions over the centuries in order to further their own faith. Another difference is that Shamanism is very specific to the culture, while the Abrahamic Religions are cross-cultural. You don't hear Italians practicing the Hmong religion, unless they are Hmong themselves. There are however, German Catholics as well as Peruvian Catholics - different cultures, yet having a similar, if not identical religion.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you, but I think the definition is very correct... Take Care. Dinkytown (talk) 02:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm still unconvinced. Religions traditionally considered non-shamanistic (and I include Eastern ones such as Buddhism or Hinduism along with western ones) believe in a spirit world, and in communication with that world, which include good and bad spiritual forces. Are shamans associated only with animistic traditions? The article doesn't say.
Other similarities: What is anointing of the sick and the laying on of hands if not a treatment of sickness, which can be considered spiritual? And is a spiritual retreat or fasting exercises, or the spiritual practices of dervishes not the same as a vision quest? Certainly a lot of Christian mystics and visionaries, like Julian of Norwich or John of the Cross had and have out-of-body experiences in which they travel to the supernatural world - and midrashic literature speaks of rabbis doing the same thing. I know that some eastern religions practice divination (it is forbidden in the Abrahamic tradition) - so the only absence seems to be animals as spirit guides, although angels are certainly nonhuman. I just think there's less difference here than meets the eye.
Citing proselytism as a key factor doesn't hold up either. Contrary to your assertion, Judaism is not a proselytising tradition - neither is Hinduism or Shintoism. What they are - and this they have in common with many so-called indigenous faiths - are tribal or national traditions, and in that sense the spiritual message, explanatory function, and enforcement of conformity peculiar to religions is specifically for a tribe rather than for humanity in general, as is the case with trans-tribal traditions such as Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam.
If the issue is the cultural context out which these so-called shamanistic traditions arise is the key identifier, then this should be made explicit. Because the actual practices have clear analogues in larger faith traditions. fishhead64 (talk) 05:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you are confusing the word shamanism with the word mysticism. All religions involve mysticism, and as a result all religions are going to have some shared simularities with some aspects of the above descriptions, including any of the larger mainstream religions. That's not surprising. That would include dervishes and even Byzantine and Orthodox Hesychasts as part of that on the extreme end. Maybe another definition of shamanism could be a strict ethnic criteria. Maybe that could be put in. Animistic traditions are a very strong part of shamanism. Maybe that could be cited and put in also.
However, most of your examples are from historical figures from centuries ago. Would you call Christianity a shamanistic religion because some sources stated that a few people did it centuries ago? Evangelicals do faith healing and speaking in tongues today, yet the Catholic Church called them witches five centuries ago - and burned them... I would not call Evangelicals (or any Christians for that matter) "shamans" as they normally do not claim to travel to the spiritual world to communicate with a spirit or a deceased individual and negociate with them, yet this is a common trait within any cultural specific shamans duty.
Priest, Medicine Man, Imam, Witch Doctor, Shaman. All serve similar roles, but have very different contexts. Dinkytown (talk) 01:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

please somebody upload the image of the Altaian shamaness I accidentally deleted while correcting the caption for this image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siberianquest (talk • contribs) 00:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Shaman's Tools Section Reomved?

Oh never mind.

Could this section be expanded?

--Bill--

Monday April 13, 2009

[edit] Shamanism In Fiction

This section needs to be trimmed as its off-topic. The sections should be described in detail on their respective pages. We should only provide links from here. Dinkytown 19:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed large sections of the Shamanism in Fiction section as they are off topic and take away from the larger article. I am temped in removing the entire sections as there is no such section in the Catholicism or Protestant page as Catholicism in Fiction or Protestantism in Fiction. Why does Shamanism have to put up with this? The issues should be linked to the other pages where there it can be expanded on, not here. Dinkytown 22:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I am removing this whole section for the reasons described above - and because of the lack of interest. My reasoning for this removal is that the examples given such as Shaman King and Zen Pinball are cartoon charaters and not good examples of shamanism. If we include these examples on this page, then we should put in Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones and Jim Bakker as examples of Protestant religion. Dinkytown 21:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shamanism"
Personal tools
Visit joltnews for the latest headlines
Visit bloit.com for company information
Geed Media does computer consulting on long island.
This page viewed times. See Logs