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[edit] Proposed modification of Firearm article structure

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I am having trouble with a couple of users reverting my attempts to restructure and organize existing firearms articles with additional subsections, as this is apparently considered "muddying the waters" (please see discussion above). Many firearm articles such as M1 Garand (history section) and Steyr AUG (design details section) have incredibly long sections (over 1000 words easily) with no subsections. This is unacceptable for readability purposes; it will be far too difficult for an average, non-firearms expert reader to navigate and understand these articles. Please look at WP:MTAA and Help:Section size policies.

Therefore I am just throwing in some ideas for subsections I feel are appropriate when the article text calls for them. Please comment on these and suggest improvements or modifications. Most of these subsections should be considered "if applicable."

The article can be structured along these lines:

  1. History
    1. Development
    2. Operational use/Service use/whatever
    3. Postwar, (if applicable to a firearm that is inherently associated with a specific war, such as the M1 Garand or Thompson M1)
    4. Evolution (if there is a lot of text about how this firearm evolved or was incorporated into new firearms)
  2. Design and details (I feel it is important to place more accessible elements of the article higher up, as suggested in WP:MTAA
    1. Features (the features that the user of the firearm interacts with, such as sights, magazine, fire selector, etc)
    2. Accessories
    3. Ballistics
    4. Engineering (details about the manufacture of the weapon if they do not belong in the history section)
    5. Operating mechanism (description of what happens mechanically when the gun is fired (this should be clearly marked as most readers will want to skip it)
  1. Variants.
    1. Subsection for each clearly distinguisable/distinct variants (so MP5A2 and MP5A3 might not be given separate sections, but MP5SD is)
    2. Civillian variants
  2. Civilian use. A general description of the use of the weapon by non-military, non-government, and legally entitled groups.
  3. Cultural impact, if any. A general summary of the weapon's impact on culture, complying with the guidelines on popular culture.

I also strongly feel that organizing an article to suit its specific contents is far more important than maintaining the same organization across all firearms articles. There seems to be a lot of difference in the structure of the different featured firearms articles. Thank you for your time and input. Some guy (talk) 05:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Added a note about this discussion to the Weaponry TF talk page. EyeSerenetalk 08:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Added a note about this discussion to the Firearms talk page.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Might want to consider that you also have variants that are considered their own weapons and come up with ideas on how to deal with that (FN FAL -> British L1A1 SLR, FN MiniMi -> M249 SAW) --Narson ~ Talk • 12:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I would say these could be given separate subsections for each variant, as already more or less seen at the M249 article. Do you have any comment on the rest of the suggestions? Would you support implentation of these subsections? Some guy (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I think this could be a good idea for a lot of firearms that currently have quite messy and overly technical layouts. I'd prefer to see a clearer distinction between development and evolution though (purely from an editors point of view - what goes where?) I guess development could include background and the creation of the gun and evolution would cover marks (SMLE Mk III, Rifle no4 etc..). I imagine that was probably your intention anyway? Its nitpicking, but I'd also prefer attachments over accessories (which just sound toy like and plasticy to me!). Why don't you knock up a sandbox version of MP5 (which I notice really needs it) to see how it looks? On a final note, I'd say this wouldn't necessarily work for all firearms, mainly the ones with a lot of history to them (but I'm happy to be proved wrong). But at least its a good template to start an article from. Ranger Steve (talk) 16:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Steve, in your 'attachments' over 'accessories' preference, where would items issued with the weapon go (like cleaning kits, cases, etc.)?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Some guy has started a dozen separate discussions on varous talk pages, article edit wars, requests for comment, etc. to try to browbeat his notions through. If there is going to be a meaningful discussion HERE, may I suggest, Some guy, that you cease the other discussions, cease edit warring, cease your disruptive behavior and martyrdom, and engage in THIS discussion only? --Nukes4Tots (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree to having the discussion only HERE.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
That's a good point Berean, I knew there would probably be something that wouldn't fit the category (I should have thought of something as obvious as cleaning kits!). Just musing on that point... would it be worth having two sections - 1 for accessories that come with a weapon as standard (cleaning kits, bayonets as standard), and another for optional extras (needs a better name) like the M203 grenade launcher or non standard bayonets? Or is that too much detail? Might be.... Ranger Steve (talk) 16:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
You could be right about that. One 'optional extra' that fits into the latter case for the MP5 article would be the the coveted briefcase (video). I'm surprised that this hasn't been added to the article especially since H&K made it. Not sure what to call that..an attachment? ..an accessory?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Again I think accessories is a good subsection or seperate section name that would normally cover all attachments/accessories/add-ons/etc appropriately, and if necessary we could always create an article-tailored subsection regarding a specific type of accessory/whatever. I forgot to say that as far as history vs. evolution, for evolution I was thinking about how later firearms that weren't exactly variants benefited from this design; a good example is the AK-47 article could have a short evolution section discussing the weapon's... evolution into the AKM and AK-74. Some guy (talk) 21:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd say that's too much and lumping everything into accessories is the best option. Any comments on my changes at the MP5 article? Some guy (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I have been trying to explain to Nukes4Tots here and his friend that personal attacks directed at the editor rather than the edits are not very persuasive or appropriate but that has not gone well. I have actually started discussions on four pages - I started out with the MP5 article and then the SG 550 article because they needed the work and I believe in approaching articles individually, but Nukes and Kaolorka have been reverting my edits due to "no consensus" so unfortunately we are forced to discuss the situation here just to add subsections. They were demanding I go to WP:GUNS, and I did, but that page gets no traffic and I realized that firearms structure isn't even covered there and moved here. Of course I agree to have the discussion here and I will not accept "blame" or any kind of absurdity for having the discussion be split up; it was a confusing situation that they forced me to escalate to project-wide consensus at the wrong project, of course I started dicussions in the wrong places. I did file RfCs to actually try to get the consensus they are demanding.
As far as sandboxing the edits, I already did that, and then due to complete lack of discussion inserted the changes myself (you can see a version here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5&oldid=299756648 ) and got general agreement with the changes before I was reverted. Obviously I feel subsections are critical.
Nukes, I'm impressed you actually participated in a discussion that wasn't directed entirely at me. I hope you can take the next step and acknowledge everyone else's opinions. Some guy (talk) 16:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Talk about narcisism, NONE of this was directed at you... it's directed at your EDITS. Until you can separate the two things, you're going to have a hard time accepting any consensus. Stop taking this personal. Show me one comment I've made that has been directed at YOU? --Nukes4Tots (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Your behavior is clear for others to see. Some guy (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)One point that's being missed here is that Firearms are not strictly covered by WP:MILHIST. They are also covered by WP:GUNS. Any consensus here should not subvert the ability for civilian guns or firearms used by Military, Police, and Civilian alike to also fit within the structure of the consensus. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I see any problem with that. I don't know how this structure would not apply to any specific group; as I said subsections should be considered "if applicable". Some guy (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Broadly speaking, I would imagine that both military and civilian firearms would have reasonably similar article layouts. Some sections might be broken down differently (e.g. military guns might break down the history around particular wars, whereas civilian guns wouldn't have such a reference point); but most topics are going to appear whether the firearm is military or civilian.
(From a logistical standpoint, WP:GUNS has traditionally adopted the relevant sections of WP:MILMOS for general use even if the discussion behind them happened to take place here. Is there a desire among members of WP:GUNS to maintain separate guidelines for military and civilian firearms?) Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I think he's just trying to make the process more difficult (withdrawn, edit conflict before I could change it; apologies). Some guy (talk) 02:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Please refrain from any more comments about other editors here. The point of this discussion is to consider article structure, and any personal differences you may have with others involved are rather off-topic; if you really wish to pursue personal grievances, there are appropriate channels, but I would suggest forgetting the whole thing and focusing on improving the articles instead. Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I tried to get this in but you edit conflicted me so now it's broken up. Sorry. Anyway, There's no reason to distinguish between civilian and military firearms for structure guideline purposes; in fact this would only create needless conflict and edit wars about whether a particular firearm was considered "military" or "civilian" (or police or government or...). Many military arms including rifles and submachineguns have civilian variants. Pistols in particular will have a lot of overlap between military and civilian use. Some guy (talk) 02:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, ignoring for the moment the question of whether there are to be two guidelines or only one, do we want to suggest different structures depending on whether a firearm is (primarily) military or (primarily) civilian? In your original proposal, we have:
  1. Operational use/Service use/whatever
  2. Postwar
1 is really only relevant for firearms which have seen official service (whether with military, law enforcement, or otherwise), although it might be extended to cover any use. 2 is only relevant for firearms which have seen military use (whether as formal service weapons, or as weapons informally adopted by a military force). Effectively, we seem to have three different potential structure types:
  • Military firearms used in combat (include both #1 and #2)
  • Non-military service firearms, and peacetime military firearms (include #1, but not #2)
  • Non-service firearms (include neither #1 nor #2)
Is this at all close to what you had in mind? Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
My feeling is there is no need for specific guidelines about this type of circumstance because it is most appropriate to specifically tailor the article to suit its own contents; but in a broader sense, I don't think there is a big need to distinguish between civilian and military weapons here. I didn't name those subsection proposals entirely appropriately; I'm sorry. I am trying to do a lot, making most of the suggestions myself, and I sometimes get caught in phrasing traps unintentionally. I don't want to make the section guidelines nearly that complicated. As I said before sections should be considered "if applicable" and obviously postwar doesn't apply to guns that aren't inherently associated with a specific war. Operational use/service use/whatever doesn't have a specific name because I wasn't sure what the best name was and I would appreciate it if someone could help me come up with something that doesn't connote military or non-military usage. Some guy (talk) 02:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I have been searching the project archives and found what appears to be the basis for the current structure guideline. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military_history/Weaponry task force/Archive 4#Firearms article structure guideline request. I think this might be valuable for reference. It appears to be substantially the same now as it was two and a half years ago. I notice that there were suggestions it be used as a "recommended article structure" and "not a hard one-size-fits-all rule that articles must follow". Some guy (talk) 04:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

(Undent) If I might make a few observations: Firstly, I'd suggest the "Evolution" section be either dropped completely or moved to the end of the article. It's contentious and very debatable- I mean, did the M-16 evolve into the M-4 carbine? Did the AK-74 evolve into the AKSU-74? Is the Jungle Carbine an evolution of the Lee-Enfield No. 4? I'd also lose the "Postwar" section for military firearms, as it's not really relevant and anything in the "Postwar" section should be covered by "Civilian/Police Use" IMHO. I would also suggest avoiding an "Operating Mechanism" section unless it's either very unusual (Such as the Straight-Pull action on the Ross Rifle) or the gun in question is part of the action's namesake (eg the Martini Falling Block action used in the Martini-Henry rifle). Anything else should be covered by a wikilink to Bolt-action, Semi-automatic, Lever-action, etc; e.g. "The Winchester Model 1873 is a lever-action rifle manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company in the late 19th century... (and so on)". The idea of an "Accessories" section bothers me too, as I can just see it turning into a "List Of Aftermarket 'Tactical' Accessories for [Gun]". Obviously, things like the M203 Grenade Launcher for the M-16 rifle would be an exception to this, but again, I think that can be covered in a single sentence with a link elsewhere in the article. Ballistics, as I understand it, is more a function of ammunition than the gun itself (a .303 rifle, for example, will have different ballistic data when fired with a Mk VI cartridge than the standard Mk VIIz cartridge, which is different again from the Mk 8z cartridge). The thing to bear in mind is that we're not The Complete Guide To Everything You Could Ever Want To Know About Guns; if we start getting too technical we're going to "turn off" casual readers, which is somewhat counter to the whole "making information accessible" thing that Wiki is all about, IMHO... Commander Zulu (talk) 04:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

As for evolution, you can have circumstances where the article discusses new firearms that were developed from the technology used in the firearm covered by the article. This would only be necessary in articles with very long history sections. How exactly is postwar not relevant? See Thompson M1 which would be associated primarily with WW2 but there are several paragraphs at the end of the history section about Korea and Vietnam, which is not civilian use. Operating mechanism needs to sectioned because it is beyond most reader's interest or comprehension; see SG 550 and MP5 for articles with overly long descriptions of the mechanical firing process which need to be subsectioned.
We can have standards about what is included in the accessories section. There is no reason to assume it will turn into a list of aftermarket acessories, and they could easily be removed. Many firearms articles (MP5, SG 550, Steyr Aug) have multiple paragraphs about accessories. Ballistics appears in the AK-47 article but I don't think it's essential. I think you may be missing the point of adding subsections, which is that articles such as the those I mentioned in the previous paragraph are clearly striving to be in "The Complete Guide to Everything You Could Ever Want to Know". The articles are already too technical. Subsections make the text far more accessible and understandable for the average reader; just read the responses of every user besides Nukes4Tots and Koalorka at this page and the talk pages at MP5 and SG 550. Some guy (talk) 07:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The problem with "evolution" sections is that they're basically an open invitation to Original Research. Pretty much every bolt-action rifle in existence except the Lee-Enfield and the Mosin-Nagant is based on the Mauser action, but I'd hardly say it's reasonable to state the the Mauser Gew. 98 "evolved" into the Weatherby Mk V, for example. My earlier comments on "Postwar" use stand; just have the article divided into "Military" and "Civilian/Police" use. World War II was a long time ago and I think it's beginning to lose its usefulness as a "Historical Measuring Stick". I mean, so what if the M1A1 Thompson was still being used after WWII? Why not just have in the Military Use section "The M1A1 Thompson remained in service with the US Military until the end of the Vietnam War."
Also, I think you're overlooking another big issue: We're dicking about here arguing over the layout of the firearm articles when we should be trying to get them up to FA or A class standard. There are very, very few FA- and A- class firearm articles and I for one would rather see more effort made into upgrading some of the more important ones we have than worrying about minutiae such as whether the Tommy Gun article should have a "Postwar Use" section in. Commander Zulu (talk) 09:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I, for one, am not dicking about anything. I think the article structure needs to be improved in order to have good articles. I hope you are not suggesting we delete most of the Thompson's history section and replace it with that vague sentence. I don't think "WW2 was a long time ago" is acceptable to trivialize its importance; it was a World War. If you don't want to debate specific articles here, would you concede that article structure should be tailored on a case-by-case basis? I don't think there should ever be a structure guideline that every article has to adhere to exactly. Some guy (talk) 09:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


(Undent) Considering that the current structure guidelines section already says "The structures suggested in this section are intended to serve as a starting point for writing a good article; they are not meant to enforce a single, binding structure on all articles, nor to limit the topics a fully developed article will discuss" I think it is most appropriate to bypass this process that will make the structure guidelines too complicated, and just add a little note saying that subsections are acceptable and may be tailored to suit specific article contents. I think we can allow editors to be rational and add subsections as they deem appropriate and these can be honed in each article through the evolution of the article, same as any other element of any article on Wikipedia. However I am willing to continue this discussion if that is desired. Some guy (talk) 11:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You're missing my point. I've been around the WP:MILHIST project for several years and have both an FA and a number of A-class articles (all firearm related) under my belt. I'm not saying we should dismiss a World War as unimportant. The point I'm making is that we shouldn't pick an arbitrary war (why not World War I? Vietnam? The Falklands War?) and then declare anything after that to be "Post-War" and worthy of its own section in the article. Or, I could just agree with Koalorka and Nukes4Tots and say there's nothing wrong with the current arrangement and I don't think it needs to be changed at all. But I don't think you want to hear that, somehow. Commander Zulu (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, he hasn't missed the point...he has just made it. The fundamental crux of why all of this has been taking place is surmised in Some guy's statement which is worth repeating.."I think it is most appropriate to bypass this process that will make the structure guidelines too complicated, and just add a little note saying that subsections are acceptable and may be tailored to suit specific article contents. I think we can allow editors to be rational and add subsections as they deem appropriate and these can be honed in each article through the evolution of the article, same as any other element of any article on Wikipedia."
This freedom to all Wikipedians is the central issue. Projects can set guidelines but do not have authority or dominion over the articles. There has been an effort on the part of a couple of editors to enforce the rigidity of article conformance issues based on a loose quasi-consensus of a WP project group; so rigid that it is stifling to creative liberty. In practical use, it has amounted to what appears to be article ownership, being accounted for with the paraphrased response "what we say over in this project is what goes!". This notion is incorrect and needs to be pointed out. The Wiki community trumps that; the larger community mandates to the smaller group, not the other way around. Hopefully this will help prevent problems in the future.
I agree with Someguy's suggestion.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, if all we want is a statement that the recommended structure is not binding, then that's already present—it's quite explicitly stated in the passage Some guy quoted above.
However, I think that there's still value to holding a discussion along these lines, even if we decide not to write an amended structure into the style guide. Our main objective, after all, is not to produce a dogmatic rule that people can run around with and use as a club in debates on particular articles; rather, we want to see if we can't come up with some sort of "best practice" approach to organizing such articles. The sharing of ideas that's taking place has value in and of itself, in other words.
Aside from that, there are some valuable points being made that don't relate directly to the question of subsections, but rather point to notes we may want to make about the content of the existing, top-level sections (e.g. Commander Zulu's comments about excessive lists of accessories). Kirill [talk] [pf] 15:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The existing guideline doesn't specifically mention subsections so we would need to add the little "subsections are acceptable and should be tailored to the specific article" or however we would phrase that. Considering "accessories" is already in the guidelines and there hasn't been any trouble, I strongly think we should leave it in. Many of the firearms articles I've already cited have two or three paragraphs about scopes, laser sights, rangefinders, grenade launches, bayonets, etc. I don't think there is any reason to assume anyone would add arbitrary lists of every accessory you can buy, and again if this became a problem it could be addressed on the article's talk page or the text just outright removed as part of the normal editing process. Some guy (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
If I can be honest here, I think a lot of the resistance to your suggestions is coming from the fact you're not "known" to WP:MILHIST or WP:GUNS. No-one likes "strangers" coming in and telling them what to do, and from what I've seen, most of your edits have been largely focused on the Sig 550 and H&K MP5 articles, with one or two forays into things like M1 Garand. It's not a criticism, just an observation. The point is, you can jump up and down about how Wikipedia should work (ie, anyone can edit anything), but without the support of the projects maintaining the articles, you're going to be in constant revert wars. Also- and this isn't a comment or criticism on you personally, but a general observation- the edits made to firearm articles by people not "known" to the Project are, IMHO, generally useless, vandalistic, or otherwise flawed in some way. So, rather than trying to force your ideas on the Projects and getting annoyed when people say things you don't want to hear, why not spend a bit of time helping to improve articles by finding cites for articles lacking them, expanding "stub" articles, or generally improving them without getting too hung up on the presence/absence (or number) of subsections? We can use all the help we can get, and we'd really rather work with you than be arguing with you, believe me. Commander Zulu (talk) 08:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
CZ, your comment "the edits made to firearm articles by people not "known" to the Project are, IMHO, generally useless, vandalistic, or otherwise flawed in some way." seems to be at the core of the problem. The other two who took this attitude are now sitting out with one week blocks each. They don't exactly make you or this project look good when they act that clannish and you defend them. This group/project has no authority. You need to understand that and so should they. This would go a long way towards problem prevention.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, who are you? Oh, right, someone else with no connection to the project appearing out of thin air to back up the guy (also with no real connection to the project) getting upset that no-one agrees with him. Look, the various MILHIST related topics need a lot of specialist expertise and the members here have put a lot of work into it to bring up the quality of the articles. Now, if new users come in and say "Hi, I'm new user and I've got some suggestions" then we're all going to say "Hello, welcome, let's hear your new suggestions!" and provided they're not silly, we're likely to say "sure, go ahead". But when a "New Guy" comes in, makes changes, and, instead of proving he has anything valuable to contribute, throws a wobbly and starts canvassing half of Wikipedia to find someone who agrees with him, and starts trying to force and established project to adopt changes that no-one else supports. I think we're perfectly entitled to say "Go away and stop being a nuisance." And so what if we are being Elitist? I think, in this project's case, it's more than a little justified. Commander Zulu (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Guys, can we please not start arguing over how much people have contributed again? Some guy and Berean may not be well-known editors here, true; but let's focus on the substance of the suggestions they've made, not on any personal matters. Kirill [talk] [pf] 00:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
One mistake that I'd like to correct - the group I was speaking of is the one from whence the problems arise, WP:Firearms and not WP:MILHIST...but if those attitudes prevail in any WP Project I will disagree with them. I'm not trying to pick nits...I happen to see this as fundamentally wrong and non-conducive to the editing environment. Nothing personal intended.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If I were to summarise your last comment, I think it would come out "You are new here, we don't open up to new people, and we are more important and influential than you". That may not be your point but it reads that way. That type of attitude is nearly elitist behavior (not to mention ownership again), which is not what Wikipedia is about. Obviously those with detailed knowledge of a subject should have an influence and their (presumably) superior knowledge should help them maintain article quality and weed out misinformed or otherwise incorrect information, etc etc. My "experience" with editing the firearms articles, while rather irrelevant, has been limited by ridiculously extensive attempts to suppress my organizational changes through reversion and personal attacks. If I didn't have to go through this whole beuracratic process, I would have already improved the organization of ten, twenty, maybe thirty articles. I am clearly not adding factually inaccurate text to any article, nor am I removing any text. My objective is to make these articles more organized and accessible per manual of style and general readability concerns. If subsections and organization are not a concern of the project members, that is all the more reason to let me take care of these issues myself. Considering all of the non-project members who have chimed in with their opinions that the subsections improve article approachability and readability, I think it is important to consider this question: who are you concerning yourself about, the members of the project or Wikipedia readers on whole? EDIT: This discussion is off-topic and I would like to stop. (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Should we take a vote on the structural changes or something? I think the actual discussion on changing article structure is nearly dead and this is so convoluted that we are not likely to get any more outside opinion. I would like to request that "development" be specifically listed as a history subsection even if we don't list any other subsections. Some guy

To be quite honest, I don't see the urgency here. This discussion has been open for less than a week; and while I think it's fair to say that nobody is arguing against the basic proposal (that additional subsections are allowed), I don't think we've exhausted the possibilities of the discussion on any specific subsections we may want to recommend. Kirill [talk] [pf] 00:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
All right, perfectly fine with me. Do you have any more opinions or suggestions? When I was trying to organize the incredibly bloated Steyr Aug article I came up with "adaptability" as a subsection (maybe "modularity" would be better) but I don't know how many articles that would apply to, so that's probably a Steyr Aug-specific section. The M1 Garand article has a "Effects in the Field" section which discusses the weapon's influence in the war; I think this is a good section idea, especially for articles with mammoth history sections (like the Garand article).
I notice that the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle uses the "history" section of the article to cover development and testing, while a separate "deployment" section covers usage in the military and beyond. This contrasts with the Thompson M1 article which has "history and service" in one extremely long section. Either way I think this clearly illustrates the need for separate development and service sections. I think "development" ("and trials" if applicable) is more appropriate that "history" for such cases, but I can't decide between "service", "deployment", "operational history", or whatever (nor whether we need to decide on specific uniform names) or whether it is more appropriate to use subsections under "History" or separate sections. Some guy (talk) 06:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to Oppose the currently proposed changes as I feel they're entirely too... prestrictive, for want of a better term. Rather, I think each article should be taken on a case-by-case basis regarding the number, type, and nature of subsections that may (or may not be) required. Commander Zulu (talk) 07:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

That essentially agrees with what I've been saying recently, doesn't it? I'm kind of in a toss-up about whether suggesting specific subsections is necessary, but it shouldn't hurt. I just had a thought - I think we should give guidelines on appropriate section lengths, as seen in Wikipedia:Section#Section size policies. It should be abundantly clear that sections of over 1000 words are not acceptable. I think that 80 words is too short, considering individual paragraphs will easily run over 150 words, but something around 500 words should generally be the upper limit before a section or subsection break appears. Some guy (talk) 08:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
You can't keep changing the goalposts. Firstly it's a "proposed article structure", which even you are saying you disagree with (at least, that's how it reads), and then it's "No, wait, actually, I meant we should have word length guidelines." To which I say: No. You yourself say that Wiki has too many rules and too much bureaucracy, and you want to create more? You must know that as as soon as we establish any sort of "guidelines" regarding wordcounts or whatever, people are going to start using them as The Final Word On The Subject and cause even more fights over whatever the issue in question is. Out of curiosity, do you really want to be a contributing member of the project? I mean, so far, you haven't joined either the MILHIST or GUNS projects and you've successfully managed to get two prominent editors blocked for a week for (essentially) disagreeing with you. That's not what I'd call "helpful", or "constructive", you understand. Commander Zulu (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, first it was a proposed modification to the article structure guidelines, with the intention of adding subsections to complement the broad sections. Considering my original comment "I also strongly feel that organizing an article to suit its specific contents is far more important than maintaining the same organization across all firearms articles", I do not feel it is appropriate to label my suggestions as thought they were intended to be rigid. I have since been thinking it is more appropriate to just add a note to the existing guideline saying subsections are acceptable. I never said "no, wait, actually" anything, I just had the idea to amend word length guidelines to the existing structure guideline, not replace them. Do not put words in my mouth. Guidelines are guidelines and as with everything else I have proposed they are not "hard and fast" rules of rigid universal application. Word count guidelines would help to supplement the use of subsections (not to mention it would be basically restating existing MOS policy); if you have a reason as to how this would negatively impact article quality, please focus on that. No, I do not wish to be a member of the project, I wish to edit and contribute independently on my own merit. Both of those editors were reviewed and blocked by independent administrators due to personal attacks. If you wish to discuss that off-topic matter further, feel free to contact me on my user talk page. Some guy (talk) 10:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
If you are not prepared to join the project, then I respectfully suggest you apologise for your impertinence and wasting of our time and remove your proposal forthwith. Do you seriously think we're going to adopt your suggestions and value you "on your own merits" when you've basically said "Oh, I'm too good to join you" after thinking you can tell us how we should be doing things and having prominent editors blocked? It's related to the very heart of the discussion. Why should we listen to you? Commander Zulu (talk) 10:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
That is exactly the type of behavior I do not wish to involve myself with. I will wait for others to comment on your words. Some guy (talk) 10:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The proposals made by SomeGuy seem fairly reasonable, and the fact he ahs modified his position slightly during the discussions seems to show that he's committed to the goal of consensus. Does it really matter if he hasn't "officially" signed up for this project. All editors are equal. David Underdown (talk) 10:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I think another relevant point is this is Wikiproject Military History and the structure policy falls under Manual of Style and I'm not sure how Wikiproject Firearms members would be able to assume ownership and control of the structure guidelines. Some guy (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The idea of having a general guideline on section size strikes me as more useful, at this point, than a specific guideline on the subsections in the article, given that people are pointing out that the section layout can be, and is, interpreted in significantly different ways in different articles. We don't want to end up in a situation where we over-specify how an article should be written, even if we do put up disclaimers that we're not trying to do so.
Is a thousand words a reasonable upper limit for sections in general? I don't think we should have any articles that would violate it, but someone might want to do a quick scan through the showcase and see if that's consistent with how articles are being organized in practice.
Other than the mention at Help:Section, is section (rather than article) size mentioned anywhere in the MoS? Kirill [talk] [pf] 12:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Not that I've found. Help:Section isn't MOS is it? Sorry for the mistake. I think 1000 words is still far too much, honestly, again I think the upper limit should be somewhere around five hundred. If you look at the design details section (excluding the accessories section) at MP5 right now, it is a little over 1100 words, for comparison. I can't imagine any situation where a section that long without subsections would be appropriate. Some guy (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Support, with the understanding that the proposed structure is open to adaptation as appropriate to the size and other circumstances of the articles. (I'm coming here from a RfC on Talk:SIG 550. I've not signed up for any project, and am not sure that I want to after reading the very strange comment by Commander Zulu above, but I've written some stubs about early Swiss rifles.)  Sandstein  10:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I should mention I'm not saying "How dare people not join!", I'm saying "How dare someone not join, try and make sweeping changes to article structures, get editors who disagree blocked, try and trawl round several different wikiprojects to get support, throw a wobbly when that doesn't materialise, try and force a major project to change its article structures, change his mind on what they actually want, and still insist they're too good to take a few seconds to add their name to the list of project members and generally prove they want to help instead of being a nuisance." Ironically I'm not involved with the SIG 550 article, FWIW. Commander Zulu (talk) 11:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
You are attacking me as an editor instead of the substance of my edits. Why does adding subsections and structure guidelines hurt the project? How does it negatively impact article quality? Since you clearly take issue with me personally I invite you to discuss this at my user talk. Otherwise, if you are criticizing me (and your perception of my behavior) instead of the quality of the changes I am suggesting, it does not strengthen your position. EDIT: And besides that, you said you were asking "out of curiousity". Some guy (talk) 11:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I will reiterate, yet again, my request that people not focus on personal differences here. Please, let's keep this discussion limited to firearms articles, not firearms editors. Kirill [talk] [pf] 12:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
That's what I want to do. Some guy (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, having had a decent night's sleep a a nice cup of coffee, I'll look at this in a new(er) light and say that I might have been a little... heated yesterday, and I apologise for that. However, seeing as the topic is a now a meandering, convoluted mess and the original proposal has been amended, changed, lost, found, lost again, found again, subjected to public enquiry, and finally buried in soft peat for thee months, I'm going to suggest that a new, Definitive Proposal be drawn up that clearly and concisely outlines the full extent of the proposed changes, and is left available for viewing, comment, and discussion for an extended period of time- say, three months or so. It might look like it's only "adding a few subsections" but for the people actually doing the work (ie maintaining the articles) it's quite a bit more complex than that, and I think it needs some serious comment and discussion from a much wider editor base than it currently has. Especially because it's not an Urgent change- it doesn't need to happen right now. If it's going to happen, I think it should happen for the right reasons, and not because someone suddenly has a bee in their bonnet. Commander Zulu (talk) 22:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Where did you get lost in a soft peat for three months? I must have missed those three months. We can't have a definitive proposal because we are still discussing what changes we'd like. I agree that feedback is important, perhaps starting the RfC process at this discussion and some of the relevant firearms articles would be a good way to get more outside opinion. How exactly is it "quite a bit more complex than that"? Again, we need to place the average reader's ability to read and comprehend the article at the top of these concerns. It is not imminently urgent but waiting three months is absurd; in the meantime, many readers who looks at the article might think "this is a horrible wall of text" and move on, thus not benefiting at all from the article's contents. We are trying to do this for all the right reasons - manual of style, WP:MTAA, the section sizing policy, and of course general readability concerns. I invite anyone to comment on my sandbox edits at User:Some guy/SG 550 (though personally I like this version [1] a lot better) and User:Some guy/MP5. These are not perfect (I think a more appropriate name than "firing mechanics" could be chosen) but I think they are good starts and this is Wikipedia so anyone could always make them better. For the time being please feel free to comment here or at the sandbox article talk pages, or edit the sandbox articles to try improving them. Some guy (talk) 23:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
How about (seriously) No Changes Needed, Formalising The Subsections Will Only Lead To Wikilawyering, Arguments, And Disharmony. That's my view on the subject. I've got no problem at all with additional subsections in articles. My problem is having an expanded Prescribed List of subsections that should appear in articles. I feel each article should be taken on a case-by-case basis via discussion on its talk page. Commander Zulu (talk) 00:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow. That is completely opposite from what the two guys from your group told Someguy! See Talk:Heckler & Koch MP5#Request for Comment: Article Accessiblity.

"Stop playing the field. Please take this to the WP:GUNS talk page and ask for a review of the consensus on article organization. You are attempting to ask the same WRONG question multiple times. Asking to change each article individually rather than changing the general consensus is wrong. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)"

...and Koa told him to make his proposal in this way on Talk:SIG_SG_550#Request for Comment: Article Accessiblity...

I do not object to the idea of subsections, just your methods of trying to implement your own interpretation of the MOS. Devise a universal guide on how to use the new subsections, work out the nomenclature, bring it up on the project page and we'll discuss the merits of the idea. You like to hide behind Wiki-policies and refer to them selectively, when they work in your favour. We're going to make you abide by these same procedures. Consensus-building, it can take some time. Hopefully, you'll lose interest and move on to troll 50 Cent by that time. Koalorka (talk) 01:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

They practically kicked him off the talk pages telling him that he had to go to a project to get a consensus. Now, you are backpedaling...do you guys at WP:Firearms know what you are doing? Looks very unprofessional especially in light of your post to Some guy's talk page which seems the epitome of bad faith. You seem to also be hinting that the consensus here in MILHIST might not be good enough...
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe we agreed that we were going to discuss articles, not editors? If you have a personal conflict with another editor, please take it to dispute resolution. This project has no control over anything you might have been told at some other project, in any case.
In the meantime, I will reiterate my opinion that a guideline on section size and general subsectioning would be more useful at this point than a list of possible subsections. I don't think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) there's really anyone objecting to the idea that we should try to avoid overly long sections; and the existing guidelines already state that the list of areas is not meant to be a binding set of sections anyways. Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm pointing out that they are double-talking...it isn't a problem with an editor, rather it is pointing out the flaws in their logic. CZ has made his point and I am making a counterpoint using what Some guy was told by CZ's projectmates. It is a contradiction, yes? I would like to know how they reconcile this. I'm not aiming anything personal at any editors here.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It isn't double-talk when you've got different people doing the talking. What we have here is purely a difference of opinions as one must expect when you have multiple people expressing their opinions, period. I would be lying if I tried to say all members of the project are of the same opinion, because we are rather diverse in beliefs, likes, and dislikes which leads to different opinions on the same subject.--LWF (talk) 02:31, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
It may be important to educate some users that their individual opinions do not necessarily represent the project as a whole. Based on the current discussion, can I be reasonably assured that if I add subsections to some articles, the subsections will not be removed because they are changing the structure of the article? I will again reiterate that I believe the policy should specifically state that subsections are acceptable and that we should have section word count guidelines to avoid exactly the type of situation that led to all of this. Having clearer policy gives us better standards and can reduce arbitrary arguments and disharmony. Look at all the disharmony that has occured already. Would anyone else like to give their opinions or suggestions on word count guidelines? Some guy (talk) 07:37, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Koalorka used an anonymous IP address to add subsections similar to what I doing at the SG 550 article. Some guy (talk) 00:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
No-one disagrees with the idea of subsections. Most articles have them in them. The disagreement is with the idea of having a formalised list of Approved Or Suggested Subsections And Word Limits Thereof. And I think it should be noticed that the "disharmony" has only occurred because someone suggested changes be made and has been rather insistent about it. There's no rush on this- and I still really don't think it's something that needs formalised guidelines anyway. Commander Zulu (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
STOP. Your continually twisting of my words is inappropriate. I will not continue to reexplain myself, you know perfectly well how many times I've said they are if-applicable suggestions that are not rigid. I have repeatedly stated I am currently more interested in adding "subsections are appropriate and should be tailored to suit the contents of the article" and that I believe we should give guidelines on section word length - you are the only person so far who has expressed disagreement with word limits. I do not like that you capitalize your phrases that are supposed to reflect my ideas as if I am imposing them as mandates. Please remain on topic. Some guy (talk) 01:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
My above comment was in relation your your (now deleted) remark from the post I was responding to: I would assume this reflects general agreement with the idea of including subsections. The comment was there when I started composing my reply, and I did not receive an "Edit Conflict" notification to inform me it had been removed when I posted it. Commander Zulu (talk) 01:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Options for moving forward

From my reading of the discussion so far, I think we have three somewhat distinct changes proposed:

  1. Specify that, in general, subsections within the areas specified in the article structure recommendations may be created at the discretion of each article's editors.
  2. Specify that, in general, sections should be no longer than some particular length (e.g. 500 words, 1000 words, etc.), and that subsections should be introduced in overly lengthy ones.
  3. Specify a particular set of recommended subsections specifically for firearms articles.

Did I miss anything? (Obviously, we could adopt more than one of these changes, or make no change at all and leave the guidelines as they currently are.)

What do people think about each of these proposals? Are any of them worth proceeding with, or do we need to go back to the drawing board? Kirill [talk] [pf] 05:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we should go with one and two. If I am unable to continue participating in the discussion from this point I vote for one and two, or whatever. Some guy (talk) 05:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] General/Admiral Stars rank articles

I need some help, I've got a persistent editor who does not understand that there needs to be discussion before making massive changes to these articles. He claims that he does not need consensus since the articles are so blatantly wrong and US-centric. It appears as though this editor is composing his own article and is redirecting established articles into his new one without preserving the content of the existing articles or even discussing it with the editors of the established articles. I'm getting to the point where 3RR and or blocking will be necessary, and since I'm involved, there is a problem. See this: User_talk:Mesoso2#General.27s_Stars and this: Special:Contributions/Mesoso2. Generals' Stars is the new article, and he is trying to redirect 5 star rank, 4 star rank, 3 star rank, 2 star rank, 1 star rank, and other articles. -MBK004 21:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd have an article that covered the whole topic of stars for rank before thinking about having several individual articles. His target article though is very badly named. As you pointed out on his talk page turning an article into a redirect is implicitly not allowed - which may be part of the problem, that and the user being bold. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the rank articles were not generated as one big list so that we could explicitly expand upon the roles of the officers in there respective countries - obviously, a general and an admrial will do more or less the same thing regardless of which country they are in, but I felt and continue to feel that the individual articles allow us to go in to more detail for the ranks as they pertain to there countries of origin. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Addendum: Apparently the user in question create his or her current account after being unable to access the original account, Mesoso (talk · contribs). According to the content of the talk page messages there this users seems to have made a few iffy edits in the past, but what got my attention was an edit concerning possible sockpuppeting. I am not saying that our current users is abusing accounts, but perhaps we need a more thorough investigation here of the edit activity of both to determine if anything odd is going on. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a bit embarrassing but i forgot the password to my first account. That is the reason for the change. Given that i stated this was the same user and that i gave the second account a nearly identical name, i don't see any problem. Anyway i am happy with any investigation of sockpuppeting, if you are concerned, there has been no problem with that. Mesoso2 (talk) 11:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I have no problems with articles on individual ranks and on rank detail for individual nations/services. The 5 star rank article at the moment is more of a half-hearted attempt at a list of 5 star ranks with pictures listing only UK, Australia, US and India.GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

He is not restricting his opinions to Generals. Since 21 June 2009:

These have subsequently been reverted by other editors:

These were changed because i believed there to be no sources. That was legitimate editing. As soon as another editor pointed out the sources in a revert, i did not pursue the matter. So i am happy with the edits (except my unfortunately not seeing the sources in the first place, which was a silly mistake on my part.) Mesoso2 (talk) 11:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

These probably should be reverted:

These should be examined by somebody with knowledge of the subject matter:

Pdfpdf (talk) 07:52, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

His contribution to British Armed Forces was adding a newline break. His work on infantry is fine. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

←An additional look from uninvolved editors might be warranted, it seems as though User:Mesoso2 is going down the same road that those of us who are aware of the fiasco with User:Middim13. -MBK004 18:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

As far as i can see, you are referring to a sock puppet editor. This is an irritating allegation so i would like it investigated. A sock puppet is an alternative account used for fraudulent, disruptive, or otherwise deceptive purposes that violate or circumvent enforcement of Wikipedia policies. Please be explicit in what you are suggesting i have done. Mesoso2 (talk) 11:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
While admittedly I haven't investigated this too much, having articles on each rank individually seems far preferable for me. That way, we can better expand on the specific things about each rank in different countries. Having one article for general officers with a summary linking to sub-articles on the ranks seems fine, but those should be full-fledged articles, not just redirects. Joe N's alt account 22:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] FAR for A. E. J. Collins

I have nominated A. E. J. Collins for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.Cirt (talk) 13:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] General, Admiral, etc.

I just checked out General and Admiral. It really struck me that both articles were about the formal rank, not about the job of being a general or admiral -- which I, at least, would find a much more interesting topic.Steve Dufour (talk) 18:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Same ship, different names - one article or two?

I proposed that USS Langley (CVL-27) be merged with La Fayette (R96), since both articles are about the same ship, under two different navies, under different names. The Segelschlachtschiff Horst Wessel does not have its own article, but is covered in the USCGC Eagle (WIX-327) article. The same is true with respect to SS France (1961)/SS Norway (I know this is a civilian ship) and USCGC Staten Island (WAGB-278)/USS Staten Island (AGB-5). I have seen other examples, but can't find them at the moment. --rogerd (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:SHIPS would be more appropriate, and they have discussed this very issue many times before, but the general rule is that each name gets its own article if the ship served under that name for a certain amount of time, what the arbitrary number is escapes me at the moment. -MBK004 22:33, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Neil Armstrong GAR notice

Neil Armstrong has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] IJA maps posted online

Tohoku University has posted about 6,000 old Imperial Japanese Army topographic maps of east and south Asia on line here. I thought that pre-WWII images in Japan were public domain, but the site states that the University retains the copyrights. The university says, however, that the maps may be used for educational purposes. I'm not sure if these are of use in Wikipedia, but wanted to bring it to the project's attention just in case. I'll also try to post notice of this at Commons. Cla68 (talk) 08:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That's excellent. I'm a bit surprised that the university is claiming copyright though - it may be worth raising this on one the the appropriate help pages here or at Commons. From my skimming, it looks like a lot of the maps of the Netherlands East Indies are Japanese reproductions of Dutch maps... Nick-D (talk) 08:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If the disclaimer prohibits commercial use, then the images can't be uploaded here, I think, since the GDFL permits any use, including commercially. I doubt the maps would qualify for fair use either. I will say that the claims from the university that it holds the copyrights smacks of copyfraud to me. Parsecboy (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] GA reassessment of Dixie Mission

I have conducted a reassessment of this article and found several unreferenced statements which need addressing. Details at Talk:Dixie Mission/GA1. The reassessment is on hold for seven days after which it may be delisted if it does not meet the GA criteria. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. 7th Infantry Division Good Topic Candidate - Feedback request

Hi, it would be good to get more opinions at the U.S. 7th Infantry Division good topic candidacy. This nomination has been open for over a month, but with only 2 (conflicting) votes, I do not feel there are enough opinions yet. Thanks - rst20xx (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] FAR

I have nominated Algerian Civil War for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Bosworth Field at FAC

Bastards! Murder! Incest! Betrayal!!! All at Battle of Bosworth Field (well... in varying degrees). Come take a read and put down your suggestions and criticisms, or best, your support, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Bosworth Field/archive1. Thank you in advance. Jappalang (talk) 08:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Alaska Lt. Gov.

I just wanted to bring your attention to Craig Campbell, a lieutenant general in the Alaska National Guard and a major general in the U.S. National Guard, who will become the lieutenant governor of Alaska on July 26. Is there a precedent in modern U.S. history? JKBrooks85 (talk) 10:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Rather large good faith copyvio problem

As a byproduct of looking at the activities of a now blocked user, I discovered that most of The Rough Wooing is copyvio. I removed some of the copyvio material, stopping when I discovered that the editor who had added it was the author of the copyrighted works, Raymond Campbell Paterson. I was able to contact Paterson by email. He clearly had not realised the implications of his edits and regrets any problems he has caused, but he says that he cannot release the copyright. This leaves a pretty daunting task of both removing the copyright material and rescuing the articles involved. Paterson created 27 articles, 3 of which are redirects [2] and worked on a number of other articles.

Books and an article by Paterson can be found here: [3] and searchable versions of them all are on Amazon [4].

We need to do this systematically, dividing up the work in some way. Some of these are covered by other projects, eg Scotland in the Late Middle Ages is covered by the projects Medieval Scotland, Scotland and Middle Ages. I am hoping that there are people here who can assist (I noticed a couple of names on his talk page I recognised) and/or point me elsewhere. Although this isn't my field, since I'm the one who opened this can of worms I'll try to do my share of the work of course. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you know if he is the actual owner of the copyright(s) or if they belong to someone else? If he is the owner, then I believe he has inadvertently released his work under the older GNU documentation license and therefore it wouldn't be a copyvio any longer, right?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think that would depend on if the work he put on Wikipedia was published elsewhere first (which would then have established a copyright that couldn't be overwritten by posting the text here). If it was previously unpublished, then it is most definitely in the GDFL. Parsecboy (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Definitely previously published at least for some, but in any case the copyright says no reproduction without the permission of the publishers. Dougweller (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The things that were already published before they were published here definitely need to go. Those of which we are unsure should probably go as well, to be on the safe side, unless Mr. Paterson confirms that they were unpublished before he posted them here. Unfortunately for Mr. Paterson, if any of his work was unpublished when he added it here, he has inadvertently relinquished control of it. Parsecboy (talk) 18:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the dates on the Amazon link I added above, they were all published before he edited. Dougweller (talk) 18:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

←Just wanted to add that Paterson's communication (which can't be reproduced for privacy & legal reasons) makes clear that his publishers have an interest in the copyright that he is not in position to release. I make use of a program provided by User:Dcoetzee that simplifies contribution checks by a contributor by clustering them under articles, prioritized by contribution size. I think I should run this program and generate a list to help us see how extensive an issue this may be. You guys were a great help with User:GrahamBould; I'm sorry to see your project hit up by extensive issues again. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Project prepared; need to generate an approach

Okay. The contributions have been gathered as immediately above and are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Rcpaterson, with fourteen subsections. Earlier subsections are smaller as contributions are more extensive. Experience tells me this works best if contributors to the cleanup of this choose sections and take responsibility for evaluating and addressing concerns as necessary. The question: what's necessary? Are we to remove all contributions by Rcpaterson that are taken from his own publications? What about those that use other sources or no sources at all? If the contribution is brief, should we turn it into a quotation per WP:NFC? Once we determine an approach, I'll construct a "template" to go on the talk pages of articles that have material removed. We won't want to embarrass Mr. Paterson, but we will want to guard against future contributors restoring this text. What say you, good people? How should we proceed? :) (Please, please pitch in if you can. The more who help out, the quicker we can address this and move on.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Please pitch in. :) We need a good approach for handling this. Some of the articles listed are not related to your project, but most of them are. Obviously, we would like to address the matter with as little collateral damage to the articles as possible. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Just to update, the work on this is ongoing, as Berean Hunter has already put an impressive dent in this! There are linked searchable versions of the books. Instructions are at the subpage. I've not yet crafted a "template" for the talk page (and don't have time right now, alas), but so far nothing has had to be removed. More contributors to the cleanup task very welcome! --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] North Vietnamese/Vietnamese formations

We currently have no articles on these, though VietWiki has some. Thus we've got Seventh Division (South Vietnam) for the South Vietnamese, but have the problem that the country name changed for the N VN units. Yet the army name didn't: People's Army of Vietnam. Thus I propose to go with 308th Division (PAVN) and suchlike. Any comments/disagreement? Buckshot06(prof) 17:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

That's fine with me. We are desperately short of anything on Vietnamese military history, despite the raw numbers. Nothing decent on the armies/units, apart from RM Gillespie's marvellous A class articles, most are about military politics, and apart from VN War, very weak. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 05:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
That also looks good to me. I agree that the lack of articles on Vietnamese military history is a problem - I was amazed to see articles on the ARVN divisions which fought during the Vietnam War in the list of new military history articles only a few weeks ago! (though it is great that they've been created). Nick-D (talk) 09:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I just created them out of a map in a VN War Encyclopedia. Again, most books only say what the Americans did except to bag the usual corrupt ARVN generals while ignoring the good ones like Ngo Quang Truong, especially as most writers are obsessed with the politics of the war. I guess reprocessing stuff from RM gillespie's articles is the most efficient way to get started at the moment. There is a 1500 page bilingual book on the ARVn Marine Corps, but, as nobody was interested in them, it was written by the ARVN MC officers themselves, and it is more like a celebratory yearbook than a proper book so it isn't really usable. The most shocking thing is that the ARVN MILHIST pages tower far above the other SE Asian MILHIST articles and Vietnam has the strongest superpower wiki-armed forces, so to speak, among A/SE Asia. The subcontinental ones are just appalling and mostly nationalist soapbozes... YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 13:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
OK. Change of title. I'm now going to go for 308 Division (Vietnam) etc, as ordinal -ths etc never seem to be added in period references. Buckshot06(prof) 14:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
OK (II). 308's created. Help with 304 Division (Vietnam) can be volunteered here! Buckshot06(prof) 18:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Disruptive behaviour with respect to Indian military capabilities.

Probably for an informed admin to review. There is ongoing bickering between User:Chanakyathegreat and User:By78 about Indian military capability. I have a view about positioning here but it's going on for a hel of a long time, over a wide range of articles and is probably more disruptive than productive.

ALR (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Please provide some diff's (or at least some article titles) for us to review. Thanx. --Richard (talk) 18:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Well there is HAL HJT-36 , Submarine-launched ballistic missile, Passive electronically scanned array, Guided missile destroyer, Vertical launching system, Car Nicobar class fast attack craft for starters. Some of these individually are getting close to 3RR - taken together they definately seem to be edit warring.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Best bet is to look through their contrib histories, it's pretty clear from there.
ALR (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd get involved and assist with the dispute, but I'm off to Europe in 22 hours so I won't be able to stick around and see it through to the end. Cam (Chat) 20:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • By78 blocked for 24 hours (first EW offence); Chanakyathegreat blocked for 6 months as a long-term edit-warrior with an enviable history (it wasn't indef only because I'm feeling charitable). Hope this helps. EyeSerenetalk 21:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
That seems the most appropriate response. fwiw I've had issues with Chanakyathegreat POV pushing in a number of articles before.
ALR (talk) 09:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. We may need to be vigilant for socking given the length of the block, but I hope that a low-tolerance approach to disruption will eventually encourage more editors to get involved in the Indian/Pakistani milhist area. EyeSerenetalk 13:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Royal Navy Officers of the Napoleonic Wars

I'd like to get some feedback on the advisability or otherwise of this new (list?) article - Notable Royal Navy Officers of the Napoleonic Wars. Created by User:DAFMM, who's grasp of wiki policy can be shaky at times, but who has a genuine interest in the subject. My understanding is that categories are preferred for this type of grouping of personnel by conflict (and we have categories for RN personnel of the Napoleonic wars). There's a whole lot of cleaning up to be done if it is kept, but I'm reluctant to take it on because if there's an underlying understanding that these lists are best kept off wikipedia, it should be taken to afd instead. Benea (talk) 20:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really sure, to be honest. The list has a value over and above a category, because it attempts to summarise why the officers listed are notable, but the content is unsourced. The inclusion criteria are specific and limited (and if sources were included, perhaps "notable" would be justified). My personal feeling is that it's doing no harm and has some value, but I don't know what others think? EyeSerenetalk 17:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd value a little more 'so what' info to be honest, otherwise it does feel rather more like a category/list. But yes, generally useful. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Would it help if the article specifically stated in its title that it's a list? EyeSerenetalk 18:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Service history for battleships

At USS Wisconsin (BB-64) a "service history" header has been added, but I was under the impression that since the FAC people had commented that the entire article was essentially service history our standard practice was to remove these headers from the article altogether. None of the Iowa class battleship articles, nor Texas, Nevada, or Connecticut have these. Has something changed? TomStar81 (Talk) 21:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I would still go with not including it in an article, the same way I remove "biography" section headers in articles about people. As you say, the article is service history. This is personal opinion though and I don't think it is codified anywhere. Regards, Woody (talk) 21:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Welcome back Woody! :) As to the headers, I also agree they should not be there, but it seems that they have been added in many of the U.S. battleship articles (Connecticut and Nevada didn't have them because I reverted/removed...) —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 21:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I find it extremely disingenuous and extremely difficult to assume good faith for Magus732 (talk · contribs) to add the header to all the US battleship articles and then claim that it belongs when reverted because it is extant in all of them. Also Tom, he did it to Texas as well as all US battleships except for the ones that have been reverted (Wisconsin, Nevada, and Connecticut). I agree with all of you that the articles do not require this header. We need to revert the addition on all US BBs and Magnus needs to learn to propose major changes that affect 70+ articles either here or at WP:SHIPS first before implementation. -MBK004 01:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, you want my reason for putting the service history under a separate header, here it is; the service history marks the beginning of the ship's use by the Navy, and is therefore an important event in the ship's life. Important campaigns, battles, accidents, and other such events are posted under separate headers, but for some reason, the beginning of the service history is not. It should be explicitly stated that the ship's Navy service started at a specific point, to separate it from the construction/shakedown phase of its career and to provide a chronological order that can be seen from near the top of the page, without a user unfamiliar with the ship's overall history having to scroll through the whole article searching for something. Because those unfamiliar with a specific ship make not known when its service started, it may lead them to assume that the ship went straight from construction to service, which is only partly true on account of the shakedown period prior to actual service. Magus732 (talk) 16:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
That why each ship article has a table, so people can see the commissioning and decommissioning dates which mark the start and end of a ships service with any given group. TomStar81 (Talk) 16:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
And to me "Service history" doesn't really seem a very good name for that anyway, as even if you don't include stuff after the ship was formally decommisioned, "serivce history" then covers the entire rest of the ship's naval career, which doesn't make a lot of sense when there'll be other headers after that, legally the ship is in service at tleast from when it's commissioned anywya, surely. If there's consensus that such a division is useful, and normally I wouldn't have thought that there's enough information about sea trials and so on that would make taht a long enough section to make any sense "Operational readiness", or "Beginning active operations" or soemthing like that would better get across the sense taht you seem to mean. David Underdown (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I suppose that makes sense... it just seems like there should be something to tell people when a ship's service actually starts, rather than it being implied... Magus732 (talk) 17:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Partner peer review for Computer Bismarck now open

The peer review for Computer Bismarck, an article within the scope of the Video games WikiProject, is now open. The Video games WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! (Guyinblack25 talk 21:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC))

PS- I, unfortunately, have not played the game. I'm hoping an editor here might have, and maybe even has the instruction manual. :-D Here's hoping. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Article request - the "British Columbia Navy" - Subs CC1 & CC2

I'll cross-post this request to WP:Ships, but it may be more usefully done by a MILHIST naval specialist; CC1 and CC2 were Canada's first two submarines, and their first 48 hours in Canadian waters were as what has been dubbed as the "British Columbia Navy"; because BC constitutionally could not operate a military or itself own military vessels, ownership was transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy quickly; they went through a broker from their purchase at dockside in Seattle due to the US' neutrality....anyway here is one source and here is a google with other material; somewhere in the google may be an article a few years ago in one of the Vancouver papers, though it would probably reprise the Vancouver Maritime Museum article as I think it was writen by James Delgado, then curator of the museum.Skookum1 (talk) 18:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

And just to note one reason for the proposed title is that CC1 and CC2 would have much reason to exist as separate articles; not that I know of anyway.Skookum1 (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, they already exist as HMCS CC1 and HMCS CC2; I found this out by looking up HMCS Shearwater, which was their tender vessel; I still don't quite see a reason for their separate existence unless there are dimensional/technical differences; the HMCS CC2 article is an unref'd stub by the way, though CC1 is pretty meaty; there's more about the episode concerning hteir acquisition in various of the googled items. I'll redirect British Columbia Navy to HMCS CC1 as it's the more thorough of the two articles.Skookum1 (talk) 19:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Could someone review 2008 South Ossetia war?

Could someone please review 2008 South Ossetia war? Although some aspects (such as naming and POV) have been extensively debated, for other things it is almost impossible to get improvement suggestions on the article talk page. I'd be especially interested in hearing your opinions about the following points:

  • Is the article's structure clear or is it confusing?
  • Is the article written in a readable and interesting way?
  • Which chapters do you think should be shortened?
  • Are there some aspects of the war you would like to know more about?

Any opinions and improvement suggestions you could give would be useful. We could also use more editors, especially those who can write better English. Offliner (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It might be worth submitting it to milhist's peer review, since that basically seems to be what you're asking for ;) Instructions are at the link. EyeSerenetalk 19:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article candidacy for Edgar Towner now open

The featured article candidacy for Edgar Towner is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment and tagging backlogs

We currently have small backlogs at:

and a huge backlog at:

Any input from enthusiastic Wiki-Gnomes would be greatly appreciated.  Roger Davies talk 06:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I try to keep the cat for the no task force down to zero, but the incomplete B-Class checklist grows as much as I try to chip it down. I fear that only a coordinated effort (i.e. another assessment drive) will eliminate that backlog. -MBK004 14:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pacific War infobox

There is currently a great deal of discussion over the contents of the infobox used in the Pacific War article. Editors who would like to comment on this are invited to do so at: Talk:Pacific War. Nick-D (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] A-Class review for Indian Air Force now open

The A-Class review for Indian Air Force is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 01:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template needed

What is the code for the tag '[Not in citation given], anyone? Buckshot06(prof) 05:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

You want Template:Failed verification. Other templates concerning references are in Category:Citation and verifiability maintenance templates. JMG (talk) 07:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Neil Armstrong needs help

As we near the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11, the article on Neil Armstrong could use just a little work.

  1. Someone has tagged a few sentences "citation needed" - it would be great to get those cleaned-up.
  2. There seems to be a small discrepancy between Apollo 11 and Neil Armstrong concerning how much fuel the lunar lander had for landing.

Thanks for your help, JMG (talk) 07:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

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