Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity
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[edit] Article alerts
This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.
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Thanks. — Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 08:57, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Christian Conventions
Please have a look at Christian Conventions. This article has been given a lot of effort by Astynax, and it deserves a better rating than start class.
Also have a look, if you have a chance, at the LENGTHY discussion with Tmtsoj who tagged the article first as NPOV and later as factually inaccurate. I got involved from a plea on the NPOV discussion board. I don't have much knowledge about this group, although I'm reasonably well informed about how to write a decent article about spiritual topics. I think the article has been adjusted adequately and should be untagged. I don't see a way to further satisfy Tmtsoj's objections, and this is becoming frustrating. I'm ready to do something rash...er I mean BOLD! Not Rash. Forget I said rash.
I would welcome any thoughts about how the matter might be better handled than way I'm doing, i.e., with a blunt instrument. --nemonoman (talk) 12:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Let me update this request on my own. The article has had past edit warring, wikilawyering, and that could easily begin again. I'm personally loosing patience and possibly objectivity. • Astynax talk 22:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
The last 2 days have had a flurry of destructive edits. This involves at least one user who signed off and evidently immediately came back as one or more sockpuppets (self-refers to previous posts claims s/he made in Talk that were made under a different identity). Assistance/intervention needed please. • Astynax talk 19:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Project challenge of the Month
We just got our first listing of the 1000 most often accessed articles relevant to this project. It can be seen here. Only a few are currently listed as being "Stub" class: Gary Cole, Brian McKnight, Millenium, Andy Richter, Evangelism, Via Dolorosa, Seven Archangels, Battle Cry: Worship from the Frontlines, Emerging church, Non-denominational Christianity, Kevin Sorbo, Ron Livingston, Chris Kirkpatrick, Gospel of Mary, Cosmological argument, Wake (ceremony), Aryan Nations, I am that I am, Effigy, and Millenarianism. Anyone wanting to do a little work on any of them, particularly those that are more directly related to the project, are more than welcome to do so though. I can definitely see maybe an award or barnstar of some kind going to anyone who can bring any of them up to Start by the time the list is next generated. Just ask to have them assessed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Contest, and we'll see how well you did. If that isn't an obvious hint, guys, I don't know what is. John Carter (talk) 22:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks.
- Orthodox Christianity should be listed as a disambiguation page, IMHO. --Carlaude (talk) 03:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- I could live with that. John Carter (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- It is also worth noting this group of articles. Of our 80 identified "core" topics (glad that workgroup got sorted out into a useful list and classification since I last saw it), 25% are rated as "start" class. It would be nice to see some improvement in that area as well. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point. I can't see any reasons not to include them as well. At this point, I'm thinking we might give the Christianity award for the articles peripherally related to our subject, like the performers' biographies, and the Christianity Barnstar for the articles more directly tied to the subject of Christianity. I wish we had a different award for the Core topics articles, but I certainly can see how anyone who can successfully bring any of those articles up at least one quality grade would more than earn one. John Carter (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I've now created a separate "Contest" page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Contest to keep track of the contest details. If anyone sees anything they'd like to see added or changed, please feel free to do so. John Carter (talk) 13:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point. I can't see any reasons not to include them as well. At this point, I'm thinking we might give the Christianity award for the articles peripherally related to our subject, like the performers' biographies, and the Christianity Barnstar for the articles more directly tied to the subject of Christianity. I wish we had a different award for the Core topics articles, but I certainly can see how anyone who can successfully bring any of those articles up at least one quality grade would more than earn one. John Carter (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- It is also worth noting this group of articles. Of our 80 identified "core" topics (glad that workgroup got sorted out into a useful list and classification since I last saw it), 25% are rated as "start" class. It would be nice to see some improvement in that area as well. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- I could live with that. John Carter (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Work has picked up again for me, but this is a great project and I will contribute as much as I can. I KNOW some of these I can really help with. -- Secisek (talk) 01:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Athanasian Creed
The peer review page looked ... abandonded, so I thought I would just list this here. I have done some significant expansion on this article, and would like to get some more eyes to give it the once over. There's a little bit I have left to do, but any improvements to what is there would be appreciated. Thanks. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Nontrinitarian views of the Holy Spirit
There is evidently some serious discussion at Talk:Holy Spirit regarding how much space to give nontrinitarian views of the subject. This is definitely not my field, but I think informed opinions from reputable editors would probably be more than welcome. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] No one actually looks here, do they?
According to this page, we're averaging, oh, only about 20 views per day on this page. My user page gets over twice that as per here, at least in part because of recent vandalism. Any ideas how to get more people to pay attention, barring vandalism of course? John Carter (talk) 16:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- I suppose we just need more active members. Ltwin (talk) 16:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- That un-moving to-do list at the top is enough to put many off I expect. Most of the entries seem NN anyway. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, as the person who created it, I can assure you they were all at least notable, but maybe not all that notable. Having said that, yeah, I can acknowledge it to be more than a bit off-putting. It is also probably redundant to the new article alerts to some degree anyway, and I figure to be moving it after completing this message. John Carter (talk) 16:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's much better. I suspect most of the more notable ones had been started & so gone from the list. The left-overs looked pretty NN to me, not that I ever felt tempted to research one. Johnbod (talk) 16:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- They all have separate entries, of about a paragraphy each minimum, in either James R. Lewis's or Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi's encyclopedias of religions, including a lot of entries on groups in underdeveloped parts of the world. But, I can try to create them individually later, using the books as references. John Carter (talk) 17:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's much better. I suspect most of the more notable ones had been started & so gone from the list. The left-overs looked pretty NN to me, not that I ever felt tempted to research one. Johnbod (talk) 16:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, as the person who created it, I can assure you they were all at least notable, but maybe not all that notable. Having said that, yeah, I can acknowledge it to be more than a bit off-putting. It is also probably redundant to the new article alerts to some degree anyway, and I figure to be moving it after completing this message. John Carter (talk) 16:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- That un-moving to-do list at the top is enough to put many off I expect. Most of the entries seem NN anyway. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
To Do? I am sure you noticed I quietly moved it to less obtrusive places in some projects. That may be a good idea all around. I check in here (and with all the work groups and many subprojects talk pages) almost every time I am on Wiki, so I am doing my part. -- Secisek (talk) 01:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] I Am that I Am
Is there a reason that this is not a re-direct to either Tetragrammaton or Yahweh?? It did go to AfD a few years back, but that was a few years back. Now, it appears that Yahweh might be the best "parent" article for this little group of overlapping concepts. If it seems appropriate to you all, I'll post a note on the article talk. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 14:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- No objections that I can see. It might involve creation of a new section in Yahweh for the other religion and pop culture references, but I don't think that there is very much need for a separate article. Any other opinions out there? John Carter (talk) 15:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Does your WikiProject care about talk pages of redirects?
Does your project care about what happens to the talk pages of articles that have been replaced with redirects? If so, please provide your input at User:Mikaey/Request for Input/ListasBot 3. Thanks, Matt (talk) 01:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject Christianity Newsletter - May 2009
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[edit] GA Sweeps notice of possible demotion of Isaac
I want to inform the community that I have done a GA Reassessment of Isaac and found the article lacking. Not very much will need to be done but enough that I could not keep it GA without some effort. I am notifying all interested projects that I have held this article for one week pending editing. The review can be found here. If you have any questions please feel free to contact my talk page. H1nkles (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Martin Luther King, Jr. Request for comment
There is currently a discussion regarding how much material regarding certain matters of the subject's private life should be included in the article above. A request for comment on the subject can be found at Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr.#Request for Comments. Any input is more than welcome. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Creeds and confessions in Christianity
I have begun a draft of this page in my userspace. It is very much not ready for prime time - not references, I haven't followed up to check on my wikilinks, and it is very incomplete. I would welcome input and editing from others to help get it ready to move to the mainspace. Thanks so much. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 16:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Categorization questions
I'm in the process of making a list of the various relevant categories, so that I may be able to ultimately try to make the existing structure a little more coherent. A few questions have come to mind regarding some already, however.
- (1) There are a few categories which contain basically only one or two direct subcategories. Do the rest of you really think such additional steps are useful, particularly if there is no apparent likelihood that other individual articles are ever likely to be created?
- (2) There is a question of the naming of several categories relating to bishops. How should the names of the categories be structured? Personally, I can't see that much of a use for a category of just "bishops", except for specific cases when rather small or underrepresented groups have articles on individual bishops. Otherwise, I would tend to think "Roman Catholic bishop", "Anglican bishop", "Eastern Orthodox bishop", and other such related categories would be more useful in general, because of the additional clarification. There might be a question regarding dioceses which had been Catholic but became Anglican, but I can see in such cases how maybe the individual articles be categorized by denomination, and then the "Catholic" category be made a subcat of the other.
- There are a few other questions, generally of a more individual nature, which have shown up as well, but I think they can reasonably hold off a bit until I get a better idea of the range of extant categories. Anyway, any opinions? John Carter (talk) 16:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
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- (1) - Maybe if there is a good reason. I can think of one example of this that is uncalled for IMO, but I cannot say I would always have that view of a category with two subcategories and no articles.
- (2) - That also depends. Right now we have Category:Bishops by denomination, Category:Bishops by diocese, Category:Bishops by century, Category:Bishops by nationality, (and a few others). Are trying to remove from this or add (subcategories) to this? --Carlaude (talk) 18:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
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- (1) I'm thinking here of catgories which have only one or two fairly clearly direct subcats which very directly relate to that parent category. So, as an example, it might be somewhat redundant to have Category:Assistant Bishops of Birmingham made a subcat of Category:Bishops of Birmingham, when both could be made equal subcats of Category:Christianity in Birmingham, England, for example. In some such cases, where the middle cat seems to exist for no particularly great purpose, it might save a step or two to just remove it entirely.
- (2) What I was more thinking of would be Category:Bishops of Bristol, which doesn't clarify what if any church the bishops belong to, and just change the name to indicate which church they belong to. John Carter (talk) 19:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Stub Help
I don't like to create stubs for which I don't have the resources to expand to at least start-articles. However, Lutheran Church of the Redeemer, Jerusalem seemed to important to pass up, and I was astounded that we didn't have this article already. I would greatly appreciate any help in expanding this, if anyone has the references to do so. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 19:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Talk:Third Church of Christ, Scientist (Washington, D.C.)
The header on this page shows: WikiProject Christianity / Baptist [show](Rated Stub-Class), but Third Church of Christ, Scientist (Washington, D.C.) is not and never has been a Baptist or Anabaptist church. It is a Christian Science church and has no provision for physical baptism of any age or in any manner whatsoever. Perhaps it is being confused with Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ. Anyway, I have tried to change it but cannot. It seems that the Baptist part is added automatically. Can someone correct this. clariosophic (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] GA Sweeps invitation
This message is being sent to WikiProjects with GAs under their scope. Since August 2007, WikiProject Good Articles has been participating in GA sweeps. The process helps to ensure that articles that have passed a nomination before that date meet the GA criteria. After nearly two years, the running total has just passed the 50% mark. In order to expediate the reviewing, several changes have been made to the process. A new worklist has been created, detailing which articles are left to review. Instead of reviewing by topic, editors can consider picking and choosing whichever articles they are interested in.
We are always looking for new members to assist with reviewing the remaining articles, and since this project has GAs under its scope, it would be beneficial if any of its members could review a few articles (perhaps your project's articles). Your project's members are likely to be more knowledgeable about your topic GAs then an outside reviewer. As a result, reviewing your project's articles would improve the quality of the review in ensuring that the article meets your project's concerns on sourcing, content, and guidelines. However, members can also review any other article in the worklist to ensure it meets the GA criteria.
If any members are interested, please visit the GA sweeps page for further details and instructions in initiating a review. If you'd like to join the process, please add your name to the running total page. In addition, for every member that reviews 100 articles from the worklist or has a significant impact on the process, s/he will get an award when they reach that threshold. With ~1,300 articles left to review, we would appreciate any editors that could contribute in helping to uphold the quality of GAs. If you have any questions about the process, reviewing, or need help with a particular article, please contact me or OhanaUnited and we'll be happy to help. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 07:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Reliability of some aspects of early Christian history
I have recently finished a book by Michael Grant, arguably one of the world's top scholars regarding Greco-Roman history, entitled "Saint Peter: A Biography". In that book, he seriously calls into question the possibility that many of the details and events of the New Testament may be inaccurately stated. This includes questioning whether the Council of Jerusalem ever took place per se. Personally, I find the arguments used reasonable and if not convincing creditable. He also provides some material, generally not original to him, regarding his thoughts as to why there are so many disagreements between the Synoptic Gospels and John, and various other matters. What would the rest of you think of adding material from this source to the various relevant articles? For what it's worth, I am using the source extensively in my draft revision of Saint Peter, given the more objective and possibly more thorough consideration of the subject in this volume. I also have other sources, but this one, which seems to be among the most recent, seems on that basis, at least to me, perhaps the best source on the so-called "modern" view of the subject. John Carter (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- It is true that the historicity of the Apostle's council is disputed (as is more or less the whole content of the actus apostolorum). But there are also historian who hold the account of the acts true. Therefore it would be unwise only to include the critical view of Michael Grant. Other views are needed as well. I can only contribute German sources, though. --RandomNumberSee (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I would only note that Grant states his opinion as only an opinion, and points out a good deal of material regarding the alleged "Council" in any event. I would personally think only that a separate section regarding the possible inaccuracies, including conflation, which is what Grant alleges it was, be added, not that the entire article be adjusted to reflect that opinion. John Carter (talk) 18:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] AfD
Please check out Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian cult (2nd nomination) if you like. I think it brings up some important issues.Borock (talk) 17:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Newington Green Unitarian Church
This is the first time I have created a really substantial article, from scratch, and would appreciate feedback and improvements. (I have listed it as within the scope of this wikiproject, although some might find that contentious.) It is Newington Green Unitarian Church, so that makes it hard for me to find the appropriate categories or projects for it. It was important in the history of English Dissenters from the established church, but is not Protestant (or even Christian?) now. It is both a listed building, and a congregation with a 300-year history of political radicalism. (Most famous minister -- Richard Price, whose sermon stimulated the Revolution Controversy, and who knew and influenced several of the Founding Fathers of the United States. Most famous congregant -- Mary Wollstonecraft, who listened to this and extended liberte, egalite, fraternite to women's rights too.) I have a "Did You Know" factoid in the list, and would like to take this to GA, but thought I'd ask here first. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Black church GAR notice
Black church has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Pope Benedict XVI GAR notice
Pope Benedict XVI has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject Christianity Newsletter - June 2009
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[edit] Problems with Prewrath article
I see several problems with the above article. Not the least of these problems is the fact that the article's title seems perhaps strange, and possibly(?) linked to prewrathministries.com. The original creator of the article, User:Strongtowerpubs, seems perhaps too similarly named to Strong Tower Publications, owned I believe by H. L. Nigro, one of the other listed sources. I also believe most of the article is at best dubiously sourced. I can myself see only one source, the Rosenthal one, that might be considered reliable. The Frederick source is from Lulu Press, a self-publishing house. I have no doubt that the subject is notable, but have very serious questions regarding the reliability of the content. I would welcome any input on the article. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] GA Reassessment of Roman Catholicism in Mongolia
I have done a GA Reassessment of Roman Catholicism in Mongolia as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found the article to need some work, there is a dead reference link and I feel that more could be added to the article. My review is here. I will hold the article for a week and I am notifying interested projects of the possibility that the article will be delisted if improvements are not made. Please address any questions to my talk page. H1nkles (talk) 04:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] GA Reassessment of Emanuel Swedenborg
I have done the GA Reassessment of Emanuel Swedenborg as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found the article does not meet current GA Criteria. As such I have placed the article on hold pending work that needs to be done to bring it up to current standards. My review is here. I am notifying all interested projects and editors of the possibility that the article will be delisted if work is not done in the next week. Please contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. H1nkles (talk) 15:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Pope categories up for deletion
I have nominated the smallest of the categories of Roman Catholic popes for deletion. Of the group nominated, the largest of the categories contains six individuals. Please feel free to take part in the discussion here. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Christian new religious movements move discussion
Please note a move discussion here at what used to be Christian cults Ed Fitzgerald t / c 21:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Outside input requested at Beatitudes
Leadwind (talk · contribs) and I have been in an ongoing edit war with Radu Comanescu (talk · contribs) at Beatitudes. Radu claims he is adding cited text, while Leadwind and I contend his additions are OR. I'd like some input from uninvolved editors who likely have dealt with issues of this nature before. Thanks. KuyaBriBriTalk 15:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] United Methodist Hymnal
I just wrote an article on the United Methodist Hymnal. Would anyone care to help me expand this article with more third party sources and information? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 22:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Consultation on renaming article: Roman Catholic Church --> Catholic Church
Wikipedians at Talk:Roman Catholic Church are discussing the merits of changing the article name as such.
Roman Catholic Church → Catholic Church. Please share your opinions there. --Carlaude talk 12:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Skirmishes at Christian Conventions
I would very much appreciate concerned editors having a look at the progressively intense editing at Christian Conventions. Edits, mostly blanking, by anonymous IPs have increased. Many of the recent editors seemed determined to remove passages -- even well-referenced passages -- based on personal interpretations of their faith, rather than reliable sources. A key example is the continuing blanking about the founder of the church: According to reliable sources, this was William Irvine, but (apparently) the members of this group believe the founder was Jesus, and are dead-set against any contradiction. That matter is simple and obvious, but a glance at this article's recent history will show the extent of the disputes. This is quickly turning into an edit war, and a few cooler heads might find a way to build a consensus and improve the article. --nemonoman (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
--Never mind. Too late. --nemonoman (talk) 02:37, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Old St Paul's Cathedral GAR notice
Old St Paul's Cathedral has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Grace Gospel Fellowship
Would anyone care to create a page on this denomination? I don't know anything about it except it has 60,000 members in the US accoring to the Association of Religion Data Archives/ The Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, and that is larger than many other denominations that do have articles. For example, the Friends United Meeting is the largest of the three main Quaker groups and it has only 42,600 members in the US. --Carlaude talk 23:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Islam has an outline in the OOK, but Christianity does not
See Outline of Islam.
For instructions, see Wikipedia:Outlines.
Also see WP:WPOOK.
Thank you.
Good luck.
Have fun.
The Transhumanist 23:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] The Outline of Christianity has been started!
Your help is needed to get it ready to move to the main namespace.
The Transhumanist 23:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Landover Baptist Church
Landover Baptist Church is a website parody of fundamentalist Baptists. Mikhailovich keeps removing an external link from the Landover Baptist Church article and says it isn't relevant. I say it is very relevant. (The only other external link is to the parody website). Would one or two folks mind going there and commenting. Thanks. Carlaude:Talk 14:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Reliable Sources Question
There is a current discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#One topic publishing house acceptable as RS.3F regarding whether and how sources from small publishers who deal primarily or only with a single church or movement may be cited in articles. E.g., can we cite a work published on Presbyterianism which is published by a house which only publishes books dealing with Presbyterianism? One editor has requested input from others, and since this might have implications for many articles beyond the case under discussion, anyone who cares to leave input there would help in forming consensus. • Astynax talk 16:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] More specific pages for saints
I was just at the talk page for the Catholic Wikiproject, and I suggested that we keep the current list of saints, but make more specific pages for each branch which can then be covered by the branch's respective Wikiproject. For instance, an article called "list of Roman Catholic saints" would be covered by WP:CATHOLIC. I think this would be more convenient for readers than the current chart being used to denote what religion the saint is praised by. 70.108.234.157 (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is are a few possible problems to that, unfortunately. One of which is what to do with the saints from Christianity before the first major schism. Another is whether saints of any of the particular churches of Catholicism would get separate lists or not. And, of course, some, although admittedly not many, individuals who belong to one church are venerated as a saint (or the effective equivalent, in for instance the Lutheran and Anglican calendars) in another. My own preference would be to perhaps make a major list of the saints who tend to be venerated by the majority of churches, and then separate lists for each church of those individuals who are not venerated by that church but not by the majority of churches. It could be workable, though. John Carter (talk) 19:31, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm optimistic, but I'll take your word for it. I know that some churches don't have a procedure for canonization, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, so it can be hard to define who is a saint, as opposed to someone who is merely a saint in popular belief. Thanks for the response, though. 70.108.234.157 (talk) 19:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- A separate list for saints before 450 AD would be good. Even still, the RC saints since 450 AD will be a fairly masive list.
- It seems like it would work okay to just have one list of all the other denomination put together. At least if we did it would still not be as long as the RC list. --Carlaude:Talk 21:21, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have bodly made the List of early Christian saints--Carlaude:Talk 22:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Dominican Order
Has anyone checked this one out recently? It is unencyclopedic and reads like a Dominican Tract. It is unworthy of Wikipdia and is bad for Wikipedia's reputation. It is made up largely of unverified statements and opinion masquerading as fact. Much the same can be said of the article Saint Dominic. What's going on here? Is the Order's PR department responsible for this hagiography? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.99.74 (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- What, you mean "In Spain the Dominicans oversaw a regime in which acts of torture and murder were committed on an industrial scale"? Now toned down. I agree the rest of it could do with better balance, (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!), and links, but no doubt those 120 fact tags will do the trick.
Johnbod (talk) 22:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Suffering of Christ
It seems to me that should either be an article rather than a redlink, or at least a redirect to an appropriate section of another article. The phrases "suffering of Christ" and "sufferings of Christ" crop up in a lot of articles, with a fairly technical meaning (in the sense that the meaning would not be clear to a person without a background knowledge of Christianity). Any thoughts? TheGrappler (talk) 22:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- If the "sufferings" you are discussing are limited to those which occurred at the Crucifixion of Jesus, I personally wouldn't mind seeing a redirect created to that page. John Carter (talk) 23:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- That looks like a good redirect target to me, but currently nothing links to Suffering of Christ except this very page. Instead of creating a redirect and then links to the redirect, couldn't we instead link directly to the target page? Huon (talk) 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I can't see why "suffering of Christ" shouldn't be a valid search term (hence the need for a redirect/article at that location). Moreover if there is an argument for the topic getting a substantial article of its own at some point as a spin-off from Crucifixion of Jesus then its better to keep links as redirects rather than piped. The expression "suffering(s) of Christ" is a theological term of art, with a specific meaning distinct from the "Crucifixion of Jesus", of which it is but one aspect. The Death of Christ is another aspect of the Crucifixion (presumably the most important), and Death of Christ exists only as a redirect. The Holy Wounds are another (arguably less important), but get their own article - which makes sense, given that there is a lot of Christian thought related specifically to that aspect of the crucifixion, for which there isn't room in the main crucifixion article. Similarly there is a substantial body of work (sermons of Augustine and Luther, as well as many books devoted to the subject) specifically on the "suffering(s) of Christ", and its theological implications.
- The closest fitting article I can find is Passion (Christianity) ("The Passion is the Christian theological term used for the events and suffering – physical, spiritual, and mental – of Jesus in the hours before and including his trial and execution by crucifixion") but I get the feeling that that link may be imperfect. That article focuses on the Biblical narrative and its cultural interpretations - which, as a non-expert, is the context I had mostly heard the phrase "The Passion" applied to before. When I did some internet searching for "Suffering(s) of Christ", the results related to how Jesus suffered seen through a theological prism - in particular, questions like "what does it mean for a divine being to suffer?" and "what does this imply about human suffering?" were addressed (again, this tallies with my personal, non-expert impression of where I've seen the phrase used before). These topics were treated separately from "what does it mean for a divine being to die?" - the suffering, rather than the death, was the specific focus (this is why I'm loathe to redirect to Crucifixion of Jesus where the theological focus rests on the death). I can't work out whether "The Passion" and "the Sufferings of Christ" are interchangeable phrases (in which case redirect to the Passion article, which ought to be extended in its theological coverage), or whether they are merely largely synonymous, but with distinct usages - in which case perhaps a separate article is called for. Unfortunately I lack access to a high quality theological dictionary or encyclopedia so I don't know whether other reference works make a distinction. TheGrappler (talk) 00:23, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed - Passion (Christianity) is the most appropriate redirect; as the article says, "passion" comes from the Latin for "to suffer". I can't see the point of an separate article, unless purely on the theological points. Johnbod (talk) 00:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- That looks like a good redirect target to me, but currently nothing links to Suffering of Christ except this very page. Instead of creating a redirect and then links to the redirect, couldn't we instead link directly to the target page? Huon (talk) 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Done As to the issue of no current links to that name ("Suffering of Christ"), you are correct that there shouldn't be any links to it. However, it is a plausible search term. Redirects are cheap. Created. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 00:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. Is there anybody here who is actually qualified to give an informed decision (or has access to a high quality source) on whether the phrases "The Passion" and "Suffering(s) of Christ" are interchangeable? TheGrappler (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- yes. Johnbod's comment above about the latin root of passion (which means suffering) was right on target. The "passion of christ" means the "suffering of christ". My refs are all in the office, but I don't think we need to reference a redirect. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 01:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. I wasn't thinking about referencing a redirect, just wondering about Johnbod's comment about theological points - it's certainly true that the Passion article at the moment doesn't deal with theological issues, and that the phrase "the suffering of Christ" appears in much theological work. Should the Passion article be expanded to include such points? TheGrappler (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that what you are looking for is how does the suffering/passion of Jesus affect the Impassibility of God. THis is addressed, to some extent, in Theopaschism, which really ought to be merged and redirected to Patripassionism. The real place to explore the topic would be, first of all, the impassibility article. It is difficult, however, to explore the issue in an NPOV way (at least for me) because there is not 1 Christian approach to the idea. Some say that it is wholly a Greco-Roman import, and inapplicable to the God of the Old & New Testaments. Others, seeing its application by some of the early church fathers, have no problem with the concept. Perhaps I could find a couple of refs - but my time on-wiki is a little limited these days. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Excellent, thanks a lot. Since the Passion article doesn't tackle the theological angle at all, none of those terms seem to be either mentioned or linked to! Would it be possible for somebody with more knowledge than me to at least work these into the Passion article? TheGrappler (talk) 21:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that what you are looking for is how does the suffering/passion of Jesus affect the Impassibility of God. THis is addressed, to some extent, in Theopaschism, which really ought to be merged and redirected to Patripassionism. The real place to explore the topic would be, first of all, the impassibility article. It is difficult, however, to explore the issue in an NPOV way (at least for me) because there is not 1 Christian approach to the idea. Some say that it is wholly a Greco-Roman import, and inapplicable to the God of the Old & New Testaments. Others, seeing its application by some of the early church fathers, have no problem with the concept. Perhaps I could find a couple of refs - but my time on-wiki is a little limited these days. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. I wasn't thinking about referencing a redirect, just wondering about Johnbod's comment about theological points - it's certainly true that the Passion article at the moment doesn't deal with theological issues, and that the phrase "the suffering of Christ" appears in much theological work. Should the Passion article be expanded to include such points? TheGrappler (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- yes. Johnbod's comment above about the latin root of passion (which means suffering) was right on target. The "passion of christ" means the "suffering of christ". My refs are all in the office, but I don't think we need to reference a redirect. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 01:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
